Yesterday here in Western NY the Temp. was around 25deg. all day. I have been shooting my gun off after each days hunt, except for last night when I left it in the truck. Did not hunt today so stoped by the range to set it off, just wanted to make sure it would go off in these temps. First try nothing, reseated load and tried again, nothing :cry: Will have to take it all apart for tomorrows hunt after company leaves. Using Barns Originals 300gr. and VV-use your imagination not 110. Gun did not get wet at all just cold. Half hour trip home with gun in back seat, barrel was still cold with heater on. Don't want this to happen again any suggestions HELP.Bob
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Bob, It must be those darn Barnes Originals! I think I can get rid of them for you :lol: Seriously now, how many shots do you have on that breech plug?That would be the first thing I would check.Concerning the N120, can not help there, you will have to check with others here. I do not remember hearing of any failures. I have tried to get the 5744 to fail , purposely leaving it in the cold, bringing it in for several hours, then taking it back out again, on a regular basis. I am using another gun right now to hunt with. So far it goes boom every time.I do not know how long this will go on, but it is a little experiment I wanted to conduct for my-self.
Bob, It must be those darn Barnes Originals! I think I can get rid of them for you :lol: Seriously now, how many shots do you have on that breech plug?That would be the first thing I would check.Concerning the N120, can not help there, you will have to check with others here. I do not remember hearing of any failures. I have tried to get the 5744 to fail , purposely leaving it in the cold, bringing it in for several hours, then taking it back out again, on a regular basis. I am using another gun right now to hunt with. So far it goes boom every time.I do not know how long this will go on, but it is a little experiment I wanted to conduct for my-self.
I know opinions are like a__holes, everyone has one. I found out very early in my first # of testing VV120 and it is not nearly as depedable as 5744 or VV110. I made posts of failures in August and decided then that VV120 was not dependable enough for my needs hunting across North America. I have read a number of successful hunters that have scored with VV120, and that in most cases it goes bang, however there are also a few reports of failure with it also. I've yet to read one on 5744. The xtra FPS & FPE are not worth the risk of a misfire! You have to have confidence in your equipment, and VV120 can't fill my bill :!:
Jeff Haugland/Iowa
Jeff Haugland/Iowa
I use the barnes and the dreaded VV powder with great success. I have left my rifle loaded for several days and no misfires. Cold temps and all. I do reseat the bullet every morning just to be on the safe side though.
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Switch powders as soon as you can. 
I'm glad there wasnt a Deer in front of you when this happened.
I'm glad there wasnt a Deer in front of you when this happened.
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Bub said:
The problem with dissecting a one incident misfire is that it is "go / no go." Can a bad primer or fouled breechplug be ruled out? Tough to do with one incident reporting.
There are no issues yet down to 20 deg. F. As winter comes in, we will try to get data on 0 - 10 deg. performance with guns left loaded and unheated all night.
A fresh charge in the morning, .033" ventliners, and Federal 209A's are all good practices.
I have not given up on the powder yet,shoots great out of my gun. So does 5744. Going to resight with 5744 this afternoon using same bullets untill some more reports come in regarding cold weather. There were seven shots fired before misfire using Win. primers, no problems, but weather was in mid forties. Cleaned gun last night, breach plug and vent liner looked good. OH well, just have to get a little smarter 
I read this thread last night and thought maybe I should fire mine after this mornings hunt to see if it goes BOOM. I loaded my gun Sat morning Nov. 19th @ 20 degrees. The temps in the last week have been from 55 degrees down to 15 degrees this morning. My load is 55gr N120 and 300 gr. Barnes MZ. After the gun is loaded, it goes into a hard case and stayes outside in the garage. When travleing, the gun rides in the bed of my pickup. I fired the gun at 9:30 this morning with no problems. Temp was 21 degrees.
Bub, I think you ran into problems because you put the gun into the warm truck for the 30 min. ride home.
Bub, I think you ran into problems because you put the gun into the warm truck for the 30 min. ride home.
Arkansas muzzleloading seasons are approx 2 months apart and I always leave mine loaded till the last day of the last season and have never had a problem, granted the temp extreme is not nearly what people up north experience. I'm shooting 43gr of VV110 but I never experienced any problem with 4227 or 4759 either. I can't recommend to others to do the same but I think common sense goes a long way here(hot primer Win or Fed, clean breech plug, Savage recommended powder). :wink:
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Rifleman said:
Dwight, It should be real obvious why i dont. :? N-120 is not an approved powder by Savage. If i wanted it, i would buy it. There are manyyyyyyy problems with N-120 in a Savage Muzzleloader. That's why it wont be an approved powder by Savage.
Dwight, any advice i offer to anyone on this board will be after alot of use in the FIELD, and on the range.
Well Tom I am on my second 2lb bottle of N120 and have experienced no problems. As far as whether it will or will not be approved by Savage I certainly cannot say as I am not privy to that information. However I do think it is shortsighted to say a particular powder that has a burn rate compatible with the Savage will not be, unless of course you are privy to information the rest of us don't have.
"Dwight, any advice i offer to anyone on this board will be after alot of use in the FIELD, and on the range."
All I can say to that is Tom is that you have alot of catchin up to do. I don't mean to sound mean or slam you, but "alot" is a relative term. And relative to alot of us the catching up you would have to do is substantial. When you come out and say something is bad, or make a negative or closed minded comment without a basis in fact and or experience it just does not make sense. I certainly do not consider myself a pro on muzzleloaders, my forte is shooting in general with considerable experience in different related aspects as my previous posts have made clear. But Tom you really should consider having a more open mind about some things, I know it is hard for me as well, but you can learn some things. Why just the other day I read an article on the new line of Simmons scopes. Well, I can tell you that I remember when Simmons hit the market, have used several, and generally have a low opinion of them. However the article did make some interesting points about the new internal construction of the new line, and I think it had merit. I won't be rushing out to buy one, however I will keep my eyes and ears open to see if they pan out and if they have a positive impact on the market. Why? Well because the weak link in many scopes currently on the market is the tracking and ability to maintain zero, and if it is an improvement I would be very interested. I guess that is how we learn.
I can also honestly say that I have heard of problems attributed to AA5744, N110,H322,2015 and other powders. Well I have used them and never had a problem with them either. Some are more accurate then others with a particular combo in a particular gun, but nothing I would call a problem. Do I think that those who have related problems in relation to those powders are lying, of course not. But I do sometimes think many problems that are blamed on one facet of the equation or the other are many times operator error, as the Savage does have a learning curve all its own.
"Dwight, any advice i offer to anyone on this board will be after alot of use in the FIELD, and on the range."
All I can say to that is Tom is that you have alot of catchin up to do. I don't mean to sound mean or slam you, but "alot" is a relative term. And relative to alot of us the catching up you would have to do is substantial. When you come out and say something is bad, or make a negative or closed minded comment without a basis in fact and or experience it just does not make sense. I certainly do not consider myself a pro on muzzleloaders, my forte is shooting in general with considerable experience in different related aspects as my previous posts have made clear. But Tom you really should consider having a more open mind about some things, I know it is hard for me as well, but you can learn some things. Why just the other day I read an article on the new line of Simmons scopes. Well, I can tell you that I remember when Simmons hit the market, have used several, and generally have a low opinion of them. However the article did make some interesting points about the new internal construction of the new line, and I think it had merit. I won't be rushing out to buy one, however I will keep my eyes and ears open to see if they pan out and if they have a positive impact on the market. Why? Well because the weak link in many scopes currently on the market is the tracking and ability to maintain zero, and if it is an improvement I would be very interested. I guess that is how we learn.
I can also honestly say that I have heard of problems attributed to AA5744, N110,H322,2015 and other powders. Well I have used them and never had a problem with them either. Some are more accurate then others with a particular combo in a particular gun, but nothing I would call a problem. Do I think that those who have related problems in relation to those powders are lying, of course not. But I do sometimes think many problems that are blamed on one facet of the equation or the other are many times operator error, as the Savage does have a learning curve all its own.
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Dwight, If you have something to offer to the thread great. If not, sit back and relax.
I guess I fall into the same backwards group. I'm sure "approved" powders are such for a reason. The 10ML is certainly not that new of a rifle nor is AA-2015/N-120 that new of propellants. Yet neither is appoved tho there has been "talk" for quite a while.
As thorough of a company as Savage is, I would think, and it is my hope that "approved" propellants are those that have stood the test of time and are the least likely to cause the user any problems and would insure safety, reliability, and 10ml user satisfaction. Isn't that the reason for approved propellants? Savage just didn't randomly select these propellants on a whim did they? The Savage Arms I know didn't.
If for no other reason I would think the use of an unapproved propellant would immediately void ones warranty. Am I right on this? Is one EVER at fault for "going by the book?"
Yeah..I'm officially backwards.....
As thorough of a company as Savage is, I would think, and it is my hope that "approved" propellants are those that have stood the test of time and are the least likely to cause the user any problems and would insure safety, reliability, and 10ml user satisfaction. Isn't that the reason for approved propellants? Savage just didn't randomly select these propellants on a whim did they? The Savage Arms I know didn't.
If for no other reason I would think the use of an unapproved propellant would immediately void ones warranty. Am I right on this? Is one EVER at fault for "going by the book?"
Yeah..I'm officially backwards.....
Grouse I do think that you are pulling rank, cheap shot. Add something to this thread? Well how about this, some are saying n120 is no good, I say it is. I have experience with this powder to back it up.
Chuck, you might consider the basis for some of the approved powders. One in particular has proven to be less then reliable. Was is 4227 or another, honestly I can't recall. Look guys lets cut to the chase. Some of you are bent out of shape with RW. So be it. Last time I checked me and him are not joined at the hip. He is my friend of course, but I also consider most of you my friends. Exactly why I gave up being a moderator. I did not, and do not want to be lumped in with someone else. I am an independent operator. Sure I agree with RW on many things. But some I do not. I agree with you guys on plenty as well, but some I do not. I am just asking you to think clearly and discuss honestly, not let bias cloud an opinion. Back to my point Chuck, the search for approved powders is ongoing, just as the search for improved BP substitutes for standard inlines continues. Just as you tried Shockeys gold, some are good, but some are hype as you found out. Same with Savage powders. Alot of fellas have found that slower powders then N110 and 5744 have a place with the Savage. For good reason, increased velocity, lower max deviations, lower pressure, less sabot stress, and increased accuracy. If Savage wants to stop putting new approved powders on the list, they certainly may, but it is my understanding that they do not consider the list stagnant or complete, and that they are considering adding powders to the list. Also I do not have complete faith in all the testing that Savage has done with this rifle. I am not saying the gun is unsafe or anything like that. But I would have you consider the saga of the 3 hole vent liner, they retooled and went into the production of the 3 hole ventliner partly on the basis of information given to them by a certain paid consultant, and later found that the information was just flat wrong. Some of the approved load data for the gun was compiled by the same consultant, and it was wrong as well. IMO Savage needs to go back and get this right and get it more complete. It may never be complete though as new powders are brought to the market all the time, and powders are dropped as well.
Chuck, you might consider the basis for some of the approved powders. One in particular has proven to be less then reliable. Was is 4227 or another, honestly I can't recall. Look guys lets cut to the chase. Some of you are bent out of shape with RW. So be it. Last time I checked me and him are not joined at the hip. He is my friend of course, but I also consider most of you my friends. Exactly why I gave up being a moderator. I did not, and do not want to be lumped in with someone else. I am an independent operator. Sure I agree with RW on many things. But some I do not. I agree with you guys on plenty as well, but some I do not. I am just asking you to think clearly and discuss honestly, not let bias cloud an opinion. Back to my point Chuck, the search for approved powders is ongoing, just as the search for improved BP substitutes for standard inlines continues. Just as you tried Shockeys gold, some are good, but some are hype as you found out. Same with Savage powders. Alot of fellas have found that slower powders then N110 and 5744 have a place with the Savage. For good reason, increased velocity, lower max deviations, lower pressure, less sabot stress, and increased accuracy. If Savage wants to stop putting new approved powders on the list, they certainly may, but it is my understanding that they do not consider the list stagnant or complete, and that they are considering adding powders to the list. Also I do not have complete faith in all the testing that Savage has done with this rifle. I am not saying the gun is unsafe or anything like that. But I would have you consider the saga of the 3 hole vent liner, they retooled and went into the production of the 3 hole ventliner partly on the basis of information given to them by a certain paid consultant, and later found that the information was just flat wrong. Some of the approved load data for the gun was compiled by the same consultant, and it was wrong as well. IMO Savage needs to go back and get this right and get it more complete. It may never be complete though as new powders are brought to the market all the time, and powders are dropped as well.
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Of more immediate concern is a way to keep folks from shooting ramrods out of their 10ML-II's. Any suggestions? :?:
What does using or not using VV N-120 have to do with Randy? Toby Bridges was shooting N-120 before Randy even bought his first bottle! FACT! Probably before he even owned a Savage. I don't really get the analogy here.
Dwight, if you are that interested in my relationship with other board members why don't you just pick up the phone and call me instead of bringing it up here. I won't bore you with the same old stuff and I won't talk for hours.
Back to my point.. Is there any deer that you've ever shot with a 10ML-II where an approved powder would not have done just as well? ANY? Personally, and I'm cutting to the chase...I think those that are using unapproved powders/duplex loads/etc like to make themselves feel like they are muzzleloading "pioneers", the "Wright Bros" of muzzleloading,
"going where others have not", etc. Am I wrong?
The Wester Powders Savage literature still hasn't been released yet. That is somewhere close to being a year overdue. Nor has 2015 been approved yet. That's OVER a year out! Just wondering why? Probably because it's hard to beat the overall performance and reliability of good 'ol boring N-110 and 5744.
This is STILL a mystery to me! I have never even ALMOST done that! I may tomorrow but for the life of me I have NEVER left a ramrod in a muzzleloader barrel!
Dwight, if you are that interested in my relationship with other board members why don't you just pick up the phone and call me instead of bringing it up here. I won't bore you with the same old stuff and I won't talk for hours.
Back to my point.. Is there any deer that you've ever shot with a 10ML-II where an approved powder would not have done just as well? ANY? Personally, and I'm cutting to the chase...I think those that are using unapproved powders/duplex loads/etc like to make themselves feel like they are muzzleloading "pioneers", the "Wright Bros" of muzzleloading,
"going where others have not", etc. Am I wrong?
The Wester Powders Savage literature still hasn't been released yet. That is somewhere close to being a year overdue. Nor has 2015 been approved yet. That's OVER a year out! Just wondering why? Probably because it's hard to beat the overall performance and reliability of good 'ol boring N-110 and 5744.
This is STILL a mystery to me! I have never even ALMOST done that! I may tomorrow but for the life of me I have NEVER left a ramrod in a muzzleloader barrel!
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