GOEX vs. Swiss

[sdporter]

My order showed up today. Gonna find out, for sure, which is best for me and my rifle.

 

[Renegadehunter]

I have shot quite a bit of Goex and Scheutzen, but only PRB and 100 yards max. I buy Goex mainly, but there was a time a couple of years ago that the muzzleloader club I was in did a group buy of Schuetzen powder so I shot a few pounds of it.
I find Schuetzen to be pretty much exactly the same as Goex. I can sight in a combo with Goex and then switch to Schuetzen and get the same POI. I do quite a bit of experimenting and shoot from a bench at the range quite a bit, so the above is what I've seen on targets off of sandbags, not just a "I can still ring a steel target" accuracy report. ha ha
I've never chrono'd to check velocity between the two, don't really care since POI is the same with both. It is very slight, but I'd also say that Schuetzen has slightly less fouling. This was with 2f, I've recently switched to goex 3f and love how much better the lack of fouling is with it.
I go with Goex simply because it is made in the USA and I try to support them, but I'd use Schuetzen again with no issues if I needed to.

 

[ihookem]

I went out after doing my Lee Shaver barrel conditioning. I am not sure what to think, however , I was satisfied to some degree. I shot 5 shots @ 50 yds with my peep sight. I tried GOEX 3F. and got this group right off the bat. It is 2.11" center to center. I tried Old Eyensford 2Fand only managed about 4" group. In all fairness, I broke off my jag after the first shot of Old Eyn so I could not spit patch the barrel between shots so I cant really blame Old Eyes for the 4" group. The Old eyes shot a solid 3" to the right however and did not shoot good. However, I have had good groups with Old Eyes with my old barrel Perhaps , this new Green Mountain just like 3F more than the 2F. If I can get 2" groups on a regular bases , I will likely just stick to 3F Goex, or just try Swiss 3F . If there is no difference, the cheaper powder gets the nod. I dont see any difference in how clean the patches are between Goes and Old Eyes, or Swiss for that matter. I did come to the conclusion that the 100 strokes of 0000 steel will made the barrel load better after 4 rounds of Old Eyes and not using a patch. It was not hard to put the ball down after 4 shots of not cleaning.

 

[GM54-120]

Swiss 2F is closer to other brands of 3F in grain size. OE being more energetic than regular Goex will need some load adjustment too. Maybe its not the granulation, maybe you just need to back off it a little bit vs the Goex load.

 

[ihookem]

I am shooting 45 gr. of Swiss 2f , 45 gr. of Goex f3 and 50 gr. of Old Eyes 2F.

 

[45-70]

I am shooting 45 gr. of Swiss 2f , 45 gr. of Goex f3 and 50 gr. of Old Eyes 2F.

 

[Renegadehunter]

I am shooting 45 gr. of Swiss 2f , 45 gr. of Goex f3 and 50 gr. of Old Eyes 2F.

In what caliber? Also what twist rate does the barrel have? Pretty light powder charge, especially if it is a .50 or .54 with a roundball twist barrel. I haven't ever seen what caliber you are shooting, did notice it is a GM barrel and also saw where you said your patches are blown up if you go over 55 grains of powder. I suspect you have an issue other than what powder to use. Four things come to mind: something in the barrel cutting the patches, too thin of a patch, patches aren't lubed well or poor patch lube, or old lubed patches that the patch material has started to break down...store bought or your own.
A good way to determine if something in the barrel is cutting them is to load one into the bore, push it down, and then use a puller to pull it back out. MUCH easier on a clean unfired barrel. It is also easier to pull back out if you can make the rod immobile, such as flipping the jaws of a vice vertical with a small gap, then positioning the rod with a threaded palm saver through the gap so the palm saver holds it in place, and then pulling on the rifle. After pulling it you will be able to see if the patch is cut anywhere, and also can see if the weave of the patch is imprinted on the ball which is something you want to see for a good patch & ball fit (not too loose). To me a patch and ball combo is too loose if I can easily push it down in one stroke, and too tight if I have to smack the rod against it with some momentum to get it down the bore. I like the fit to be where I have to push it down the bore a little at a time while grabbing the rod about 8" above the bore each time.
I understand wanting to shoot a light target charge but some slow twist barrels require a fairly stout charge before they shine...but I really think you have a patch fit or old lubed patches issue.

 

[Matthew323]

A crown conducive to patched ball shooting will be a big help.

It is what I choose to call a radius crown. It is 1/8" deep, and a radius is formed instead of a straight line into the bore.

My phone is old, and will not allow me to post pics.

So, go over to American LongRifles.org, and do a search for coned muzzles. Find one of those threads, find a poster named Daryl, and click onto some of his posts. You should find images that fully explain what I am trying to convey.

A properly radiused crown will vastly improve the ability to start a tightly patched ball.

And, once the patched ball is in the bore the depth of a short starter, 6"-8", it should EASILY be pushed down onto the powder charge with short 6"-8" strokes of the ramrod.

After my first flintlock longrifle with its Douglas barrel, all the rest of my rifles had Getz barrels with coned muzzles. A coned muzzle was just Don Getz's way of marketing a radius crown.

All of those Getz barrels were super easy to load with a ball that was 0.005" under bore diameter, together with a thick cotton duck patch.

The totality of the thicknesses of the ball's diameter, and the compressed thickness of the patch material; should exceed the groove diameter of the barrel.

This is what Renegadehunter is trying to tell you when he says that the weave of the patch material SHOULD BE IMPRINTED into the soft lead surface of the ball.

You might have to go to Joannes Fabrics, and purchase some thick cotton duck material to stand up to the sharpness of your lands. Or, polish the bore with some fine steel wool. Or both.

Bruce

 

[ihookem]

Renegade, I shoot a new green Mountain 50 cal. with a 1/66" twist. I am going to try a bigger charge next time cause I gave it 100 strokes of the Lee Shaver 0000 steel wool . Some say this will smooth over the sharp rifling. I shoot a home made ticking patch I got from Walmart. It is .18 to .2 according to my caliper. I have used TC yellow Bore Butter , olive oil, and lard on my patches. I will try more lube and a stronger load like you suggest.

 

[eekjellander]

Neatsfoot oil works well if you run out of bear oil (BEST)/ Ed

 

[Renegadehunter]

Your pillow ticking (I assume you're washing out the sizing before making patches) and any of those lubes should work fine, as long as the patches haven't been sitting around lubed for a real long time. I avoid using patches that have been lubed for longer than about 3 months. I've tried all 3 of those lubes at one point or another and was able to get accuracy. After your polishing it may just be powder charge that will bring it around. I'm a bit OCD so I would probably still pull a load so I could inspect an unfired patch.
Many find that the sweet spot for a .50 cal 1:66 twist barrel is between 70-90 grains of 2f, a slower twist seems to like to be pushed pretty hard. I think you are on the right track to try to find a lower charge it will shoot well, just keep upping the charge 5 grains at a time until you find it.

 

[ihookem]

I think most of my patches are a few months old and I did wash the cloth once when I bought it.
I will try the patches I made last week.

 

[Matthew323]

I think most of my patches are a few months old and I did wash the cloth once when I bought it.
I will try the patches I made last week.

If that does not work, and your patches are still tearing, then give your crown a good check. The radius crown that I mentioned in my above post will not only keep a tight fitting ball/patch combo from being cut; but it should substantially lessen the amount of force it takes to get the ball started.

Many, many posters over at ALR have stated that once they smoothed out the factory crown on their barrel, per Daryl's instructions, they were able to thumb start the ball/patch nearly flush with the muzzle.

That is what I was able to do with the Getz barrels that had the factory "coned muzzle". Like I mentioned above, that was just Getz's language to market what everyone is now calling a radius crown.

It is in NO WAY SHAPED LIKE A CONE!! All you are doing is turning the straight line crown, usually 60°, and radiusing it so that it forms a short, roughly 1/8" deep, curve into the lands/grooves.

Most of the shooters following Daryl's advice are performing this modification with their thumb, and some form of abrasive paper/cloth.

Since you have polished the lands with steel wool, once started, the ball should EASILY be seated on the powder. Especially if you are using something like Mink Oil for a lube.

 

[ihookem]

This is a bit off subject of original post , however, it is amazing what a little difference makes in a powder.. I guess it could be just by chance though. I shot this group with my 50 cal. roundball Green Mointain . This was after the Lee Shaver 100 stroke 1000 grit steel wool barrel conditioner. I used 45 gr "old Eyes" in 3f. of powder @ 50 yds . There is little doubt this barrel likes 3f more than 2f, and the Lee Shaver steel wool conditioner no doubt helped. The bigger group was Goex 3f and the smaller group is the Old Eyensford 3f. No doubt there is a difference in powder. If I can do this fairly consistent , I will just settle on " Old Eyes" 3f. and be done with the experimenting . If it was not for the low roundball , the group would almost be one hole. The funny thing is , it shoots noticeable lower, but thats ok , the top of my bead is on the bottom of the orange.

 

[eekjellander]

This is a bit off subject of original post , however, it is amazing what a little difference makes in a powder.. I guess it could be just by chance though. I shot this group with my 50 cal. roundball Green Mointain . This was after the Lee Shaver 100 stroke 1000 grit steel wool barrel conditioner. I used 45 gr "old Eyes" in 3f. of powder @ 50 yds . There is little doubt this barrel likes 3f more than 2f, and the Lee Shaver steel wool conditioner no doubt helped. The bigger group was Goex 3f and the smaller group is the Old Eyensford 3f. No doubt there is a difference in powder. If I can do this fairly consistent , I will just settle on " Old Eyes" 3f. and be done with the experimenting . If it was not for the low roundball , the group would almost be one hole. The funny thing is , it shoots noticeable lower, but thats ok , the top of my bead is on the bottom of the orange.

Folks like Daryl and Lee Shaver can really help in the accuracy /loading department and do it on a regular basis !