greater than 120 grain load of BH209?

[OIDG]

What's the largest load you guys have tried with BH209? I've gotten it to finally work of of my LRH .52 using the Federal 209A and the FPJ system, but was not pleased with the groups with 120 grains. I know Knight recommends 150 grains loose 777 and the 375 Red Hot for best performance with this gun, but could only get 2.5" groups at 100yds with that combo. I would like to bump up the load a bit but don't want to have it blow up in my face, either.

Besides the obvious volume similarity, would you say 150 grains of BH209 is equivalent to 150 of 777. I thought BH209 was hotter?

thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[txhunter58]

where are you getting your info? I have not tried BH 209 yet, but have used a lot of 777, and I am 99.9%sure that NO gun manufacturer recommends 150 grains of loose 777 in any of their regular blackpowder rifles!!! I think you are confusing their recommendation for 150 grains of pellets, not loose powder. Since most people feel that loose 777 is about 15% hotter than pyrodex, you are really shooting the equivalent of 172.5 grains with that load. Knight makes some of the best rifles out their, but I am not standing anywhere within a 1/2 mile of you when you shoot it.

Not only that, but you must have an iron shoulder! I start flinching if I get much over 100 grains, so I can imagine what it would be like with your load! My elk load is only 90-95 grains of 777, so you don't need that much firepower.

The posts I have seen comparing BH to 777 seems to indicate that BH has a slight edge in power. I would never shoot 150 grains of loose BH 209! About 120 would be absolute max.

 

[OIDG]

Well, Toby Bridges is where I was getting that info, who looks to be sponsored by Knight. Check out this article on the .52 that he wrote.

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Feature7.html

He says in the 4th paragraph:

Knight offers the .52 DISC Extreme with a unique "stemmed" breech plug, which funnels the fire from the No. 209 primer ignition to the front of the powder charge instead of igniting it from the rear. According to the company, this results in a more efficient burn of magnum 150-grain charges of loose grain Triple Seven. And I do not question that claim. I was able to get the company's huge saboted 375-grain .475" diameter all-copper "Red Hot" hollow-pointed bullet out of the muzzle at 1,920 f.p.s. with 150-grains of FFg Triple Seven.

Also, on the Knight website in the FAQs it says:

All current 2006 models, have a 150 grain maximum powder charge

Since the stemmed breech plug won't work with pellets, I wasn't confused.

Regardless of the debate, my gun doesn't like the load. Recoil was comparable to a 300 Win Mag, which doesn't make for a pleasant next morning.

Does anyone have a combo that works in a .52 with the 375 Red Hot?

 

[txhunter58]

don't mean to hijack your thread, but I think this is an important point for any newbie reading this.

I was certainly surprised to read that from hpmuzzleloading. I am firing off an email to Knight to be sure that he is correct.

However, the info in the FAQ section is a little hazy. There are two sections that talk about max charges. Here is another one in another section that is copied and pasted:

"The recommended maximum powder charge is 150 grains of FFg Black Powder or Black Powder equivalent, in every 2006 model Knight? Rifle."

"150 grains of black powder or BLACK POWDER EQUIVALENT" is a far cry from saying that 150 grains of loose 777 is OK because 150 grains of loose 777 is about 172.5 gr of black powder equivalent

Must be because of the stemmed breech plug and a more controlled burn. I just over-reacted because there are so many posts of guys just starting out that don't know the difference, sorry.

Hope you find the info you seek.

 

[cayuga]

What's the largest load you guys have tried with BH209? I've gotten it to finally work of of my LRH .52 using the Federal 209A and the FPJ system, but was not pleased with the groups with 120 grains. I know Knight recommends 150 grains loose 777 and the 375 Red Hot for best performance with this gun, but could only get 2.5" groups at 100yds with that combo. I would like to bump up the load a bit but don't want to have it blow up in my face, either.

Besides the obvious volume similarity, would you say 150 grains of BH209 is equivalent to 150 of 777. I thought BH209 was hotter?

thanks in advance for any advice.

You want to bump up from 120 to 150 grains of BH209? I have no idea what the manufacturer of BH209 would say, but it might benifit you to contact them. I have no knowledge or first hand experience as to the kind of pressures this new powder developes but it seems to shoot well in a lot of rifles with 110 grains of powder which is still more then enough power. Perhaps you might want to try to lower the powder charge and see what happens as well. 110 grains would still be a monster hunting load from what I have read about this new powder.

 

[sabotloader]

txhunter58

I copied this page out of my Knight DE manual. As you look through it you will see that 150 grains of T7 (loose or Pellets) is OK with certain projectiles.

See note #1 - Black Powder Pyrodex RX or Selct and Triple 7

 

[paia]

For what it's worth, I am looking at a Western Powders brochure for Blackhorn 209 right now and they say:

"For bullets up to 300grains DO NOT exceed 120 volumetric units of Blackhorn 209"

"For bullets above 300 grains DO NOT exceed 100 volumetric units of Blackhorn 209"

"Bullets over 350 grains are not recommended"

Western Powders is referring to .50 caliber rifles, but I don't think the .52 makes any difference.

It looks to me like you are way off base with your ideas. Why not go right to the source and call Western Powders?

#406-234-0422 in Montana (on mountain time?)

Good luck

 

[OIDG]

What I was trying to ask is what would you say is the equivalent in BH209 to 150 grains of loose 777. I emailed Western Powders on thursday about .52 caliber and their product and was forwarded a link to the Toby Bridges site and a page with different loads he tested. He never went over 120 grains of BH209 in his tests.

I read as well to not go over a 350 grain bullet, but also read this thread on this site where you guys have debated it before.

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... php?t=9407

I'll definitely try lowering the charge of BH209 with the 375 Red Hot, but I am sure I'll have nowhere near the 1,600 f.p.s. and 2,150 f.p.e. at 200yards that I could get with 150 of 777 and the 375 Red Hot. I'd love to be wrong, though.

 

[txhunter58]

Thanks Sabot and OIDG, that is why I come to sites like this, learn something every day.

 

[txhunter58]

When one math problem doesn't work, try another one!

Try this one on for size: The Taylor index:

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

I would suspect that your 375 shot with 120 gr of 777 or BH 209 will stack up very well out to 200 yards with this formula. The f.p.e. gives too much emphesis to velocity in my opinion when you are talking muzzleloading. Big bullets even at moderate speeds KILL.

 

[cayuga]

That 375 grain bullet is a big heavy bullet. Even a moderate powder charge with that kind of weight is going to have some good down range energy. I shoot a lot of the Buffalo Bullet SSB in 375 grain and they do a great job, and are real accurate. Although I have not tried them with BH209.

 

[OIDG]

Wow, you guys are right. I love learning new things as well. I did a little digging and found another test with the .52, the 375 RedHot, and 120 grains of BH209. At 200 yards that combo has 2,223 f.p.e. traveling at 1,634 f.p.s.

That's not all that different than 150 of 777.

I'm crazy to want to up the load with those stats. Actually, I should try lowering it to see if the groups will tighten up. Thanks for the helps folks.

 

[Lee 9]

There are people with pressure testing equipment using heavier loads but not with that heavy a bullet, this is a progressive burning powder and when you go to heavier bullets than it was designed for the pressure will go up expotentially and turn it in to a hand grenade. I suggest 100gr. or try a different bullet. Lee

 

[jesheba]

I have always understood "The 150 grain loads" to actually be the amount of powder that is the equivalent to 150 grains of BP.A 50 grain pellet is not 50 grains of anything......just equal to 50 grains of BP.Somebody is going to get hurt if they don't get that straight in their head. Further more why do so many shooters think they have to go to the max loads to get the job done?In all my years of reloading I rarely found the suggested max to be the most accurate.Start low and work your way up to find the sweet formula.