Is 70 grains enough?

[Overdue Bill]

My old CVA Big Bore Mountain rifle groups quite well if I don't go over 70 grains of pyrodex.  My question--Is this enough to be effective on white tail?  My shots are usually at about 50 yds.  My main concern (second to safety) is wounding game and not killing it. :?:

 

[exMember]

Yes I used 70gr 3fg goex and a round ball on a bull elk last year. Whitetail will be no issue at all. Put it right behind the shoulder.

What thickness of patch are you using?

 

[Overdue Bill]

Don't really know and don't have a mike.  I use pillow ticking and just make sure that it takes considerable pressure to seat the ball in a clean barrel.

 

[Old Smoke]

My .54 likes 70gr of T7.  Most accurate round ball load for it.  She kills deer on the spot out 75 yards just fine.  Probably a tad further, but I'm not so good with iron sights!

 

[BrownBear]

My wife won't tolerate more than 60 grains of 3f in her beloved 54 caliber.  I even went so far as making her an 80 grain measure and labeling it as 60 grains, but she smelled the rat.

Good news is, it's accurate as a snake bite and she's never needed a second shot on deer. By choice she holds her shots to 50 yards, and in fact we've never recovered a ball from a deer. All broadside shots, but far as I know those balls are still whistling along after complete pass-throughs.

Your 70 grain load sounds like a magnum charge to her! 

 

[Overdue Bill]

Thanks fellow front stuffers.  I appreciate the help.

 

[burlesontom]

My wife won't tolerate more than 60 grains of 3f in her beloved 54 caliber.  I even went so far as making her an 80 grain measure and labeling it as 60 grains, but she smelled the rat.

Now thats funny right there. I don't care who you are. :face:

But yes 70grs of 3F should be plenty. Remember the civil war load was 60grs and a 600gr bullet. And it killed like crazy.

When I shoot 70grs or above I use a ball patch in the bore first with the patched ball over the top of that. It works like a firewall and my ball patches come out looking so good you could almost reuse them. The firewall patch is usually pretty burnt up.

 

[Overdue Bill]

Yeah, I loved the phony 60 grain measure thing.   Great idea, that extra patch for a firewall.  I never tried that but I do use a pinch of bees nest often.  That works well also.

 

[burlesontom]

I thought about the bee nest thing per Sam Fadala in the BP shooting manual. But me and wasp don't get along so I tried the patch before the patched ball and it works just dandy for protecting the ball patch. And a 70gr load lets you get 100 shots per pound of powder.

I have read that the indians were noted for using light charges in their guns way back when. It worked for them.

 

[Old Smoke]

My wife won't tolerate more than 60 grains of 3f in her beloved 54 caliber.  I even went so far as making her an 80 grain measure and labeling it as 60 grains, but she smelled the rat.

Good news is, it's accurate as a snake bite and she's never needed a second shot on deer. By choice she holds her shots to 50 yards, and in fact we've never recovered a ball from a deer. All broadside shots, but far as I know those balls are still whistling along after complete pass-throughs.

Your 70 grain load sounds like a magnum charge to her! 

Ha!   I initially tried shooting it with 100 grs, which was fine if you didn't mind the stiff recoil and 8" groups at 100 yards!  

70 grs is plenty and accurate for my needs.

 

[BrownBear]

Ha!   I initially tried shooting it with 100 grs, which was fine if you didn't mind the stiff recoil and 8" groups at 100 yards!  

70 grs is plenty and accurate for my needs.

Yeah. It depends a lot on the rifle and the twist rate of the barrel.  In my experience accuracy is in the largest part due to rifling depth. With shallow rifling like on most TC's (except their limited production Round Ball barrels), accuracy can go south if you try to push a ball with the wrong patch too fast.  Lotta folks get their nickers up tight in their crack over TC's "compromise" 1:48 twist, but they're spoofing themselves.  The compromise is that shallow rifling.  Original Hawken rifles were all 1:48 twist, as were a whole lot of other makes. 

But they all had deeper rifling. Slow twists are all the rage today, but they're modern fashion rather than historic fact.  In my experience (and I have several of them) many slow twist barrels don't like light powder charges, while up around 1:48 they're accurate over a whole range of powder charges from very light to heavy.  My 62 cal Leman has around a 1:80 twist, but I don't recall the zact number. Sad to say it's a very light rifle with a tiny butt stock, and if you drop below 100 grains of 2f, you can't hit a dinner plate at 75 yards.  Get it up over 120 grains (and 140 grains is best), and it will drop balls into 3" or smaller groups at 100 yards.  You got not only the recoil, but that tiny hooked butt to test your enthusiasm for small groups.

 

[Overdue Bill]

Thanks Brown Bear--When I get time and a decent day I'm going out and do a lot more experimenting.  I've used this rifle for many years and gotten quite a few white tails with it but it just seems like it's grouping has changed some over the years.  It couldn't be possible that I'm changing some now that I'm in my eighties.   Yeah, as you probably know, my old CVA is a 1:66 twist.  I only have two muzzleloaders, both CVA's so I don't really know much about how deep or shallow rifling affects the groups.  I enjoy reading posts from you folks that really have a bunch of experience with different set-ups.   Thanks again.

 

[BrownBear]

You know, one of the biggest reasons for accuracy changes (even bigger than old eyes like mine and yours!) is nipple erosion.  If you haven't changed nipples in a few years you might try that. Lots cheaper than new glasses!

 

[Overdue Bill]

Thanks again BrownBear.

 

[Buck Conner1]

I have used 70gr 3fg Goex and a round ball on deer, antelope and elk for years, step it up for larger game. Haven't had any issues with this load.

 

[Overdue Bill]

Thanks Buck.  That seems to be the general consensus.   I have received a bunch of responses and no one thinks 70 grains is to little.

 

[Mad Irish Jack ODonnell]

.015 cotton Patch; .530 rb; 75 gr Goex FFg. Been using it since I patterned charge in 1994 when I built this rifle, an early Lancaster with a 44" Colerain swamped barrel. Performance: -.5" at 25 yds;  on at 50 yds: +1.5 +/- at 100 yds and -2" +/- at 150yds. On a full body Hessian target at 250 yds POA 1' above head (or top of Hessian headware) I'm a heart shot in the chest area +/- 3". One foot over the head ware, gives a head shot with the same +/- 3".  Aim at the forehead, he won't make babies if he lives LOL. Our reenactment group (ROC- Rangers of the Ohio Company based in Washington,PA) used documentation records for the basis of our qualifying for skirmishers and rear guards/support (snipping shooters). Documentation was taken from archives at the Green County (PA) Historical Society Letter and Records Archives of the Ohio Trade Company of VA. The Company hired help to the military and others when they had no current work for their signed charges (workers) which were classified as per their unique skill sets (laborers, teamsters, scouts, hunters surveyors, etc). All were hired as to needs and fees pad to the company and individual pay usually given at days end. Could be powder, ball, cloth, all manor of hard goods, etc, that were agreed upon when the contract was signed for their hiring. Our qualifying fun was all done around early November 2000. Rifles at 125 and 250 yards; Smoothbores at 65 and 125 yards, To many ML lovers haven't shot their guns more than 100 yards, if that, ever. It's no different than shooting in a scoped, modern, high power rifle. It does take a bit more time to Get 'er Done. But the reward of knowing what you can and can't do with it is priceless. Also much, much fun. I've used 70 grains in the some loads in shorter barrel guns with the same results. Hunting, I only every recovered 5 balls.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Can you even find anything more open than 65-70 yards Jack with all the vegetation. Use to stay in West Mifflin and hunt a family friends farm, not very open for anything much over 70 yards, same with over around State College (family farm) - 1,500 acres with a third under plow the rest thick woodland.

 

[patocazador]

My granddaughter killed her first deer with a PRB and 50 gr. of 3F. So 70 is enough. That's what I use in my .50s. I use 65 gr. of 3F in my two .45s.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Yes I used 70gr 3fg goex and a round ball on a bull elk last year. Whitetail will be no issue at all. Put it right behind the shoulder.

What  thickness of patch are you using?

I use the same on most game animals, but jack it up 10 grains for bear and buffalo, also use the 3FFF for priming (use only one horn).  :Red tup: