Is 70 grains enough?

[Kentucky Colonel]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I can't resist chiming in. 

We have a forum member whose skills I think highly of. He has won several BP state championships and he builds his own. He likely does not know how much I listen to him. 

He believes (and he convinced me) that on white tail you do not need more than 40 grains and you do not need a .50 calibre or higher. When he first told me, I objected. It seemed too puny. I said something along the lines of, "I want to make certain I drop him as soon as possible." 

He said, "Then practice. It is shot placement that drops a deer, not calibre or a lot of grains of powder. And, use the same grains when you hunt as you do when you are practicing at the range shooting paper."

He said a lot more, but that is the core of it. As a result of his words and my thinking about them, I have decided that the next rifle I build/acquire will be a .40 calibre- and swamped! (I am thinking of winning a few matches at the range) I have played with shooting at the range with 40 grains (.50 calibre) thanks to him. It does perform fine at the range.

Now, as I am not the marksman that he is, I do hunt with a hotter load and practice with the same. I use 90 grains (factory rec for my .50 Hawken) in the woods. (Now, I will say that he hunts these tiny Florida deer. He probably could use a spit-ball. :lol

Now, I have not asked him about elk... I wonder... In theory, it is all about shot placement... But, I want a cannon if I meet a bear... or, a pissed off big boar... or, one of Buck's ex-wives... then I want a grenade :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Buck Conner1]

KC I have killed at least two dozen mulies with a .36 caliber patched round with 55 grains of 3FFF Goez without any issues (legal as a state governrnent hunter - illegal as a sportsman). 

It's all about shot placement. Hell I have seen guys wound whitetails with a .72 caliber slug (shooting an animal in the butt usually doesn't do much for putting them on the ground plus wipes out some good meat).

 

[Sparkitoff1]

I'm late in my reply and you've received plenty of intelligent responses.  However, I do believe there is power is being reassured and repetitiveness speaks volumes.  I used 70 grains in both 50 and 54 caliber with PRB and conicals. It worked well on TX sized whitetail deer and a few other critters up to 200 pounds. One day I accidentally set my new powder measure to 80 grains. When I realized it I checked it against the old measure and it was indeed 80 grains comparatively. I did not notice any additional recoil but I did have a very accurate day at the range. I tried out the two loads and discovered 80 grains was a little more accurate in the 54 caliber in particular.  I chronographed both 70 and 80 grain loads and found that in the 50 caliber with the same projectile I only gained 70 fps with the 10 additional grains of powder. With the 54 caliber I gained 100 fps.  Also interesting was that in 54 caliber I use Triple 7 FFFg in the caplocks and Goex FFFg in the flintlock.  Both gained 100 fps with 80 grains of powder compared to 70 grains. I then tried 90 grains of powder but did not get any advantages. So in my experience 1) 70 grains is charge capable of taking deer sized game and more (depending on range) with a PRB or conical in 50 or 54 caliber 2) There is a point where an additional 10 grains of powder will make a noticeable difference in velocity and/or accuracy 3) There is also a point of diminishing return where more powder will not gain significant velocity or accuracy. I hope this is useful information.

 

[burlesontom]

You're right in your testing. After a point more powder does not give noticeably more power. Just more recoil. My bud has one of the Pedersoli 53 caliber Plains rifles that does indeed need .520 balls. That rifle has a 1" barrel and is allowed 120grs of 2F powder. Since that is what it is rated for thats what he shot for years. And he always had trouble with blown and torn patches.

He got into BP a couple of years before I did. Then I gave it a try and liked it. At least I liked it after I learned how to load my gun and read patches. It took me years to get him to try less than a full 120grs of powder. Now he will shoot as low as 80grs of powder but thinks its some kind of witchcraft not using 120grs.

The one deer I killed with a BP rifle was loaded with 75grs of powder and a RB. The one elk I killed I used 90grs of powder and a Lee Minnie ball. Trust me 90grs was not needed to kill that elk. I think that bullet would have went through two elk if they had of been lined up.

IIRC in the early part of America when just the east was settled many hunters killed their game with 38, 40 and 44 caliber guns. It was all that was needed for the ranges they hunted. And they knew how to hunt. And they didn't just have deer back in the 18th century. There were still elk and bison in the eastern woods. And always bear. Lots of bear. I just read a book on Daniel Boone and it made mention that those early hunters would eat deer. But they much preferred bear and hogs. And they killed them all with small bore rifles, round balls and small powder charges.

 

[Mad Irish Jack ODonnell]

Buck,
    Our Commander at the time, in the 1990's,when we qualified, was the owner of an Arabian Horse breeding operation in the time off as a Sr Pilot for US Air. His farm was 300+/- Acres and he gave the back 15 acres to the Rangers for our tactical's. We had our closed events and invited groups from a 5 state area for weekend tactical events. A good method of idea exchange and story swapping. McDonald Sportsman's (1000 yards) and  Clairton Sportsmans' Clubs (300 yds) are the LOOOnng range clubs close by ( 7 and 15 miles respective).

 

[Overdue Bill]

I'm still getting responses to my "is 70 grains enough" post and I didn't find one response saying it wasn't enough.  I sure appreciate all the responses although I didn't reply to each individually.  Love this forum and reading zillions of different posts from zillions of different muzzle loading shooters. :lol:

 

[Buck Conner1]

Mad Jack that would shake the "flat hatters" loose with that much going on, you guys are lucky you didn't feel a buggy whip ... 

 

[Rifleman1776]

My old CVA Big Bore Mountain rifle groups quite well if I don't go over 70 grains of pyrodex.  My question--Is this enough to be effective on white tail?  My shots are usually at about 50 yds.  My main concern (second to safety) is wounding game and not killing it. :?:

You don't say what caliber you are using. But, my .45 flinter kills whitetail very ded with a 65 gr. charge.

 

[Overdue Bill]

My big bore mountain is .54.

 

[BrownBear]

My big bore mountain is .54.

My wife slaps deer silly with her 54 using only 60 grains of 3f, whether Goex or Pyrodex P.  She limits her shots to 50 yards, but since we've never recovered a single round ball from deer, I'm guessing she could easily stretch the range to 75 yards.

 

[burlesontom]

I think we have all been conditioned to think you need 3000fps to game animals. That the only guns that will kill deer dead on the spot are rifles with "Magnum" stamped on the side of the barrel.

But of course thats not the case. Deer and other game have been killed for the last 3 centuries with small bores and light charges of powder. In the 18th century powder and lead were expensive and hard to get for the white settlers. It was even more difficult for the native indians to get. I have read that in the battles between the natives and settlers you could always tell when the indians fired because of the low report from the small powder charges they used. But they killed people and game animals just fine.

 

[Buck Conner1]

When still acting as an animal control person in PA and NY there were times we used .22 lr and mags to put whitetails down because of folks complaining about the report of high powers.

 

[burlesontom]

I got out my Lyman BP handbook and looked up some of the velocities for 70gr charges in 45, 50 and 54 caliber. Powder is G-O FFFg except the first listing. Strangly enough Lyman did almost all the rifle test with 3F powder. They pretty much only used 2F in the 58 caliber. And the 70gr loadings in 58 caliber were pretty weak.

45 caliber 28" barrel: PRB w/70grs 2F 1670fps and 822 FPE 260 FPE at 100 yards.
45 caliber 28" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1994fps and 1172 FPE and 332 FPE at 100 yards.
45 caliber 32" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1977fps and 1152 FPE and 328 FPE at 100 yards.
45 caliber 40" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1925fps and 1190 FPE and 315 FPE at 100 yards.

50 caliber 28" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1587fps and 1005FPE and 365FPE at 100 yards
50 caliber 32" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1663fps and 1104FPE and 389FPE at 100 yards.
50 caliber 43" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1725fps and 1188FPE and 408FPE at 100 yards.

54 caliber 28" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1375fps and 922FPE and 409FPE at 100 yards.
54 caliber 34" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1439fps and 1010FPE and 431FPE at 100 yards.
54 caliber 43" barrel: PRB w/70grs 3F 1527fps and 1137FPE and 462FPE at 100 yards.

Since this is the round ball section I didn't include any data for conicals. But they do strike harder at 100 yards than the balls do. I have checked a few of these velocities with my own chronograph and they are very close to what I got from the same barrel lengths. Longer barrels definitely give a real velocity boost.

 

[BrownBear]

For reference a .535 ball weighs pretty close to 240 grains.  At 1375fps from a 28" barrel, that's pretty darned comparable to a 44 mag from a 6" barrel.  Whole lot of handgun hunters have popped deer out to 100 yards and beyond with that load from scoped handguns.  Not a thing to worry about with a muzzleloader, I think.

 

[strong eagle]

when my dad grew up in the sand hills of n.dak he and his dad and brothers used one old remington .22 to take numerous deer and pheasants. they never thought of deer season back then. when i worked with the turtle mountain chippawa  i got to know a lot of old timers. they all told me they shot moose in the winter with a .22. the would go into the frozen swamp and as a moose was eating willows they would get close and shoot it behind the ear. usually each family unit had about 12 to 15 members in about 2 cabins. it took two moose and a couple of deer to feed them through the winter. ive tasted sausage made by a lot of different people but those guys up on the border made the best home made smoked sausage ive ever ever eaten. they are a native french mixture and french love pork. they never raised beef up their but each family always had a couple of pigs. they mixed pork with moose or deer. once in a while elk came down from canada and they would take them right away. the younger men liked the 22/250 or the 7 mm mag. left the .22 behind. because of that my youngest son has a 7 mm mag and a 22/50. loves both of them for big game and predators. the chips also in the spring netted fish when they were running. only time of the year that they fished. they filled freezers with them so they also ate fish all year long. they would set their freezer on their decks so they only plugged it in in the summer. when the cold weather hit they unplugged them as the out side temp kept the meat froze. they are very self sufficant people and eat mostly wild meat mixed with pork. they also mass hunted ducks and geese and stocked them up for one year. they also ate a lot of split peas as that is the staple of their french trapper great grand fathers ate split peas every. the .22 was a God sent to them in the old days. fed every one. a very strange side bar to all this, my family has found out that my great grandmother on my mother side was one of them. i have their blood in my veins. im very practical like them and laugh alot like they do also. my sin is olive color like they are also. when i worked up their i was looked at by the whites in the surrounding area as one of them. now i know why. my great great grandmother and grandfather homesteaded in northern dakota territory during the civil war and their son, my great grandfather married one of them. i did not know that when i worked with them. the most fun ive ever had hunting when i was invited to a day of hunting deer with them 13 of them with me the one white person. only thing is as i look back i was one of them also. we hunted the scrub oak along the canadian border. even used snow shoes. got used to them fast. you have to walk like a pregnant women. never fall down in deep snow as it is hard to get up again.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Need to get back to subject line: Is 70 grains enough? 


My fault for commenting about a different subject   :Questuon:

 

[BrownBear]

One other point worth making:

My wife is a stellar shot.  You DO NOT want to get in a shooting match with her when she offers up stakes like washing the dishes for a month.  Ask me how I know! :x

She's also very picky about her shots. She only shoots broadside animals standing still. She also hates to ruin a good venison heart or liver, so she slides her shots back a little behind the deers' elbow, but not so far back as to clip the liver.  Pretty small target, but she never misses. I hear a bang of in her direction, and I unlash my deer drag before I get to her. No need to wait and see if she scored.

 

[oneshot1]

You can have too much powder. Seen many using too much unburnt powder.

If you have an old White Sheet, fire over it until you don't see powder on the Sheet. This is the way we use to do it.

oneshot

 

[Buck Conner1]

Snow works as good as anything.

 

[oneshot1]

Snow works as good as anything.

If you have it.

oneshot