Ive Gotta A Question!!!

[ourway77]

The old saying is If you can't say anything nice about a person say nothing at all. I e-mailed Toby on several occasions and he was very helpful Two sides to every story

 

[rangerod]

Sounds like two sides of the same coin. All I know is when I started out I was having a lot of trouble and TB was a great help. He was very kind to someone he didn't know at all. It's been my experience that people who are consistently nice and helpful to others are usually honest. The perception of bias is not proof of bias.

 

[WV Hunter]

I highly doubt that there's anyone doing reviews and testing that doesn't "pimp" just a little when it comes to sponsors. Now those that are "funding" their own reviews they can do what they wish but in reality, unless you got money to burn there's not many that go this route.

I don't fault anyone for pimping for their sponsors. Yep, gotta eat. The only issues I ever have with anyone that pimps, is when every other month or year they are touting something else as the greatest thing ever. They don't really care whether it is or not, they are being paid by said company thus they pimp it as such. Nothing against Toby or any of the others, I just see this alot in this industry and I understand why its done.

But (to me) it discredits the value of their opinions, when they are constantly changing based on who is writing the check. Especially when they do product reviews. I can see the avg hunter or fisherman pimping whoever is sponsoring them, but most of those folks are just product users. They aren't doing what are touted as objective reviews from a so called "industry expert".

 

[Doccbst1]

I enjoy Toby's articles, and Randy Wakemans, and reading post on forums like this one and many others. Most are filled with experience, knowledge and data otherwise outside my knowledge base.
Especially hard data. I've learned a lot and still learning. Most articles/post show a bias to the writers own preference whether it be financial, personal experience, financial investment, ego or other reasons. A grain of salt goes a long way.
Data doesn't need salt.

 

[ported45]

I am with busta in this, I read his blogs and visit his website often, why would knight not want to give him guns to test, seems wrong if you want people to get an idea about your product you put a few freebies out there, that’s what smart business people do. If I was him I wouldn’t review their products on my own dime , that’s stupid, if it’s good he gets nothing , they get free publicity

Loaners are free, too. You just have to give them back after you test them. What is so bad about that unless you are just doing it to get the stuff for free?

 

[MrTom]

I enjoy an open mind and will read reviews and such but I also take a lot of what's being promoted at face value. CVA is in bed with Powerbelt bullets and the people reviewing or testing those guns push powerbelt. I've had had my own personal fall-outs with powerbelts and chose to use other products to get the job done. I like reading reviews and field testing reports but I can also read right thru biased promotion and take such with a grain of salt. I try not to fault the people doing the reviews. I also make decisions on product value based on how well the balance in reporting is between the product attributes and the product's negative side. Nothing is perfect. There's always going to be issues that are not mentioned in the promo write-ups. I have little faith in paid promo advertising anymore and generally will wait on something to be put to the test in the field before I venture out to purchase it. The critical reviews come from those who are putting their own money forward to use the products in actual conditions. These are the reviews that I pay the most attention to. A person just has to decide what information thru what source he wants to rely on and believe in.

Over the years I have been on field staff with several major fishing tackle companies, leaders in their field. I had to submit written reviews occasionally and know what the parameters are for doing these reviews in the eyes of the company. Today I am affiliated with one company that makes molds for casting jigs and plastic baits and keep my affiliation centered around being a product specialist dealing with people having problems with different components and offering working solutions that keep everyone moving forward happily. I still work with new molds and plastic products but my reviews of such are submitted directly to the company and they deal with how they want to address things both positive and negative. I'll add that I do not get any $$$ compensation for doing what I do, but I do have access to the components and if I don't personally use or know how these components perform I do not have any comment on them, to the company or to anyone. I do what I do with a broad mind though and I look at all aspects of a product good and bad.

 

[Idaholewis]

I don't fault anyone for pimping for their sponsors. Yep, gotta eat. The only issues I ever have with anyone that pimps, is when every other month or year they are touting something else as the greatest thing ever. They don't really care whether it is or not, they are being paid by said company thus they pimp it as such. Nothing against Toby or any of the others, I just see this alot in this industry and I understand why its done.

But (to me) it discredits the value of their opinions, when they are constantly changing based on who is writing the check. Especially when they do product reviews. I can see the avg hunter or fisherman pimping whoever is sponsoring them, but most of those folks are just product users. They aren't doing what are touted as objective reviews from a so called "industry expert".

Very good post!!

 

[GM54-120]

There's always going to be issues that are not mentioned in the promo write-ups. I have little faith in paid promo advertising anymore and generally will wait on something to be put to the test in the field before I venture out to purchase it. The critical reviews come from those who are putting their own money forward to use the products in actual conditions. These are the reviews that I pay the most attention to. A person just has to decide what information thru what source he wants to rely on and believe in.

And that is exactly the point i was making yet someone has to go into attack mode instead of simply accepting the truth of the matter. This aint just a "Toby thang" either. I would say the same for Wakeman and i have in the past. When a reviewer doesn't mention issues with a product until the gravy train ends though it shows his true colors....Pay me for good reviews or... dont and no reviews or worse...Holding back negative stuff as a form of leverage to keep getting paid is a horrible work ethic...I think they call that blackmail and extortion.

 

[dwm]

And that is exactly the point i was making yet someone has to go into attack mode instead of simply accepting the truth of the matter. This aint just a "Toby thang" either. I would say the same for Wakeman and i have in the past. When a reviewer doesn't mention issues with a product until the gravy train ends though it shows his true colors....Pay me for good reviews or... dont and no reviews or worse...Holding back negative stuff as a form of leverage to keep getting paid is a horrible work ethic...I think they call that blackmail and extortion.

But isn’t that the way it always seems to be, i know it would be nice to have unbiased reviews, but these reviews on any product is simply the reviewers opinions, and I don’t blame him for not reviewing knight without getting the stuff to review, that is poor on knights business practices, in my OPINION. very good topic. I have emailed Toby and he took the time to email me back, I like that,he had nothing to gain by doing that

 

[toytruck]

is there a reason people don't like Knight
Enlighten me.

Just my opinion, for whatever its worth. Knight sued Doc White back when both guns started out due to both guns being alike which never made sense to me, they aren't alike to me. Doc White lost the court decision and went bankrupt over that deal. I was just getting my feet wet in muzzleloading and didn't know all what happened, just what I read. I haven't owned a Knight rifle, just don't care for the type of system they have. I do own several White rifles and one shotgun, they are the best muzzleloaders I have owned.

When I was starting out I sent a email to Toby and he answered right away with helpful advise. I always appreciated that from him. As far as Randy I don't have a thing against him either, but sometimes one can read between the lines and get an opinion good or bad...

 

[Squeeze]

I agree they are a trove of information. Its just that some credibility must be scrutinized, when every few years, there seems to be flip flop of various opinions on products, typically coinciding with a sponsor's opt in or out of participation. Some "pro staffers" are more guilty than others.

 

[sbuff]

Toby always seems helpful and knowledgable from what I've seen. Many on here bash him, but if knight gets bashed on here every knight fan boy is out to defend them

By the way I own zero knights

Steve

 

[MrTom]

Its just that some credibility must be scrutinized, when every few years, there seems to be flip flop of various opinions on products, typically coinciding with a sponsor's opt in or out of participation.

This statement speaks volumes especially on credibility. I'll use fishing flashers used for ice fishing as a prime example. Both Vexilar and Marcum Technologies have and use "pro staff" to promote their products. One year so and so may be singing allocades about Marcum products, then the next year he can't say enough about Vexilar when he's offered a better package even thou the year of Marcum he "bettered" Marcum over Vexilar every chance he got. Now where is his credibility? People in the market see and read these reviews and when compensated staff switch horses and thusly dun the very product they just praised the year before things don't look good.

I've read reviews and articles by both Wakeman and Toby and have to wonder if they haven't picked up a negative following by doing just as I have described above. I recognize some of this going on with both parties and do not put too much weight on what they say, but the concepts can be fun reading.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I dont know much about either of those guys. I look at whats for sale. I handle what I can. I listen to other MLers that I respect and KNOW. Then I buy something and see how I like it. If its good i keep it, if i dont care for it i trade or sell it. Its not that I dont like or trust them, its that they are strangers and i dont know their true motives. Only I can determine whats best for me. sometimes you can get information overload from reading too many opinions and articles. I have cva, knight, and now t/c guns. I like them all for dif reasons. None of those are from writers opinions, just my own. Regardless of who said what, i prefer a break action ML. And IMHO, CVA wins hands down. I hope toby and randy dont get mad at me don't saying so.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I've read reviews and articles by both Wakeman and Toby and have to wonder if they haven't picked up a negative following by doing just as I have described above. I recognize some of this going on with both parties and do not put too much weight on what they say, but the concepts can be fun reading.

I think maybe Toby has changed some over they years after a few mistakes? The other guy, I have no use for him.