Joe D thinks I am crazy...

[jcchartboy]

4759, was what they used on mine.

Yes, I believe that is right...I know they use one standard load...

BTW...Joe is firm believer that the 250gr bullets are better than the 300gr bullets...
(At least for accuracy testing)

 

[Grouse]

BTW...Joe is firm believer that 250gr bullets better than 300gr bullets...
(At least for accuracy testing)

I think most Savage shooters/owners would disagree on that. That gun was built around 300grn XTP'S. :wink:

 

[jcchartboy]

BTW...Joe is firm believer that 250gr bullets better than 300gr bullets...
(At least for accuracy testing)

I think most Savage shooters/owners would disagree on that. That gun was built around 300grn XTP'S. :wink:

Don't shoot the messenger.... :wink:

 

[IndianaHunter]

Is JJ's Austin still out there??????????

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Spit-

Yes, they have had it for a month now inhouse. I do not expect it to return as I told Ray via email yesterday to keep the gun. Obviously it was too much to pick up the phone or return my calls.

To date, I have purchased 2 Austin & Halleck 420's and both of them ARE ill functioning.. Both have spent more time in the hands of UPS than in the field. Both guns have been a terrible letdown and devastating to my wallet.

..... to think, I could have one fine ULA for the price of those two 420's!!!!! uke:

I see on A/H website that they are preparing the introduction of their new muzzleloader. http://www.austinhalleck.com/AHPR17.html
All I can say is BUYER BEWARE!

Looks cool but I'll have to pass....customer service is the key for me... In my world I'd be out of business if I treated my customers like this! As a 20++ year veteran of mfg / sales I know from where I speak... :wink:

 

[joedegrande]

Thought I might be able to help with some of the questions since they seem to be related to what we saw at Savage. Me - think someone is crazy - not until I can get my elevator to go to the top floor will I ever pass judgment!

We are proud of the reputation we have built as a 'customer driven' company. When a firearm is sent in for evaluation, we call it like we see it. It's tough when what you see does not match what you heard. Unfortunately, there are those 'forces' in nature that thrive on those situations. Ever take your car to the mechanic for a noise and all of a sudden it's not there anymore? Ever go to a doctor and all of a sudden the symptom is gone? Gosh, I hate those 'forces'!

ANYWAY, back to the muzzle loader. I have dealt with Henry for quite a long time and have the utmost respect in him; personally and professionally. When Henry puts his name on a firearm, it's good. As a mechanical device however, things can happen. We had a team of three evaluate this firearm: myself, the Master Gunsmith, and the shooter. The consensus of opinion was that the bolt stroke was 'normal'. By this I mean that all three of us felt no unusual binding, grinding, or the necessity to close it any harder than any other muzzle loader. Accuracy - no issue with 0.9" at 100 yards. The powder used was IMR4759 (42 grains), 250 gr Hornady XTP bullet, and a MMP sabot (short pedal).

A good rule of thumb for accuracy is that whenever an issue arises, go back to basics. The recommended loads in our manual are time proven. There are also other variables such as making sure the breech plug is not constricted, vent liner is good, action screws/scope bases/rings are tight. I guess all I'm trying to do is raise an awareness to some of the many factors that contribute to the overall function of the muzzle loader.

Oh, before I close, thanks so much for the kind words! Do we make every call right - no - but they are made honestly, sincerely, and with all the available facts, knowledge and experience at our disposal. As I have posted many times, if there is a question or a problem I can help with - contact me. I wish I could read every post on every forum but that alone would be a full time job (and a half).

joe ...

Joe DeGrande
Director Of Customer Service
Savage Arms, Inc.

[email protected]
413-568-7001 (ext 4139)

 

[jcchartboy]

they are made honestly, sincerely, and with all the available facts, knowledge and experience at our disposal.

Exactly the reason why you are such a great group of people to deal with...

Jeff Herrmann

 

[Grouse]

Thought I might be able to help with some of the questions since they seem to be related to what we saw at Savage. Me - think someone is crazy - not until I can get my elevator to go to the top floor will I ever pass judgment!

We are proud of the reputation we have built as a 'customer driven' company. When a firearm is sent in for evaluation, we call it like we see it. It's tough when what you see does not match what you heard. Unfortunately, there are those 'forces' in nature that thrive on those situations. Ever take your car to the mechanic for a noise and all of a sudden it's not there anymore? Ever go to a doctor and all of a sudden the symptom is gone? Gosh, I hate those 'forces'!

ANYWAY, back to the muzzle loader. I have dealt with Henry for quite a long time and have the utmost respect in him; personally and professionally. When Henry puts his name on a firearm, it's good. As a mechanical device however, things can happen. We had a team of three evaluate this firearm: myself, the Master Gunsmith, and the shooter. The consensus of opinion was that the bolt stroke was 'normal'. By this I mean that all three of us felt no unusual binding, grinding, or the necessity to close it any harder than any other muzzle loader. Accuracy - no issue with 0.9" at 100 yards. The powder used was IMR4759 (42 grains), 250 gr Hornady XTP bullet, and a MMP sabot (short pedal).

A good rule of thumb for accuracy is that whenever an issue arises, go back to basics. The recommended loads in our manual are time proven. There are also other variables such as making sure the breech plug is not constricted, vent liner is good, action screws/scope bases/rings are tight. I guess all I'm trying to do is raise an awareness to some of the many factors that contribute to the overall function of the muzzle loader.

Oh, before I close, thanks so much for the kind words! Do we make every call right - no - but they are made honestly, sincerely, and with all the available facts, knowledge and experience at our disposal. As I have posted many times, if there is a question or a problem I can help with - contact me. I wish I could read every post on every forum but that alone would be a full time job (and a half).

joe ...

Joe DeGrande
Director Of Customer Service
Savage Arms, Inc.

[email protected]
413-568-7001 (ext 4139)

Thanks Joe 8)

 

[dwhunter]

4759, was what they used on mine.

Yes, I believe that is right...I know the use one standard load...

BTW...Joe is firm believer that 250gr bullets better than 300gr bullets...
(At least for accuracy testing)

I agree VERY much about the 250 gr. bullets! :wink:

 

[Loggy]

jcchartboy,

Glad to hear Joe doesnt think ur crazy!!! :lol:

One thing for sure is that after reading Joe DeGrande's post is that I'm pleased to see such outstanding customer support & personal response given to your return!!!

Myself, owning a 10 ML-II plus a 110 243 Win its very comforting knowing folks like Joe and his company are there to support their fine products in a way thats second to none!

 

[jcchartboy]

jcchartboy,

Glad to hear Joe doesnt think ur crazy!!! :lol:

As I am sure you guessed, I was joking about Joe's original response to me... He could not have possibly treated me any better....!!! :yeah:

 

[dwhunter]

BTW...Joe is firm believer that 250gr bullets better than 300gr bullets...
(At least for accuracy testing)

I think most Savage shooters/owners would disagree on that. That gun was built around 300grn XTP'S. :wink:

Then why is every Savage ML shipped with 250 XTP's?

 

[Grouse]

Then why is every Savage ML shipped with 250 XTP's?

Only Savage could answer that question.

 

[Admin]

Tom,
He was opening and closing the bolt WITHOUT a primer in it. It was still hard to close.

:? I shot his gun alot Pat. I just dont remember that.

I was watching him demonstrate it for Randy. I didn't try it myself though. It could loosen up later.

 

[nugbuk]

Jeff,
Is bolt is still hard to close? Is breach plug is all the way in?
Could you post pictures of the bolt in different positions and let everybody compare with their guns?

 

[jcchartboy]

Jeff,
Is the bolt still hard to close? Is the breach plug all the way in?
Could you post some pictures of the bolt in different positions and let everybody compare with their guns?

Joe just sent it out yesterday. I will be happy to provide feedback upon arrival.

Just to clarify...

After speaking with Joe, it seems that perhaps we were simply being overly critical of the operation of the bolt. By definition it requires some degree of leverage to close the bolt in order for normal operation. This in and of itself is not an issue as long there is no grinding or other irregular actions. While my gun my have required slightly more "camming" action to close the bolt, he assures me that the overall functioning of the bolt is fine.
That is really the question I needed answered, and the reason I sent it to him.

 

[joedegrande]

A quick peek and I saw another question:

? ? BTW...Joe is firm believer that 250gr bullets better than 300gr bullets...
(At least for accuracy testing)

I think most Savage shooters/owners would disagree on that. That gun was built around 300grn XTP'S.

Then why is every Savage ML shipped with 250 XTP's?

Only Savage could answer that question. ? ?

Well - here's the answer - At Savage, we use the 300 grain Hornady XTP for proof testing. For targeting, our testing at 100 yards has shown the 250 grain Hornady XTP to group better than the 300 grain. So, as Paul Harvey would say ... Now you know the rest of the story ...

Will we all agree - no - and that's okay too. Within the guidelines outlined in the manual, shoot what your muzzle loader prefers. A Ford man will argue all day against a Chevy and a Chevy man will counter his claims and have some of his own. Bottom line - they are both good.


Hope this helps.
joe ...

Joe DeGrande
Director Of Customer Service
Savage Arms, Inc.
[email protected]
413-568-7001 ext 4139

 

[Loggy]

Jeff,

FYI I have HB No.104 which is serialed in the low 20,500 number range. My bolt is also fairly stiff to close. Of course much more resistence felt when cocking. The most resistance is encountered in the last inch or so to lock-up. I do give entire bolt assembly a lite coat of RemOil when cleaning.

 

[joedegrande]

Loggy,
The muzzle loader 'locks-up' on the bolt handle, unlike a center fire which ?locks-up? on the bolt head. As such, the bolt handle has to cam down against the rear of the bolt handle cut in the receiver. This is the friction you feel when you cam the bolt closed.

Unlike centerfire bolt assemblies, there is also no front baffle or 'bolt head ears' to guide the bolt in the receiver. The rear action screw guides the bolt through a slot in the bottom. If the rear action screw is not ?bedded? correctly in the slot prior to tightening, the bolt travel/feel will be affected. The bolt will also cam much differently when it is out of the stock.

joe ...

Joe DeGrande
Director Of Customer Service
Savage Arms, inc.

[email protected]
413-568-7001 ext 4139

 

[Loggy]

Thanks Joe.

 

[Grouse]

Bottom line - they are both good.

I shot alot of Deer with both bullets. Including the 260grn DeadCenter,and they all did the job.