Just Found Out Smokeless is Legal in FL

Discussion in 'Smokeless Muzzleloading' started by james 14, Oct 19, 2017.

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  1. Oct 19, 2017 #1

    james 14

    james 14

    james 14

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    I'm in. Where can I get one of these things? Of course I could Google it but Google isn't the expert here. I'm cringing at the thought that I'm going to need to spend $1000 or more. Please say it ain't so.
     
  2. Oct 20, 2017 #2

    GM54-120

    GM54-120

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    CVA Hunter 45/70 about $250
    CVA Scout 45/70 $350-380
    Conversion to a ML $200-300 with parts and labor.

    So yes you could get into a smokeless 45cal for around $500-750 depending on ignition type. LRMP cost more than 209 and you would need a way to prime the modules for LRMP. Something like a hand primer with the correct shell plate.

    CVA Hunter and LRMP is a interesting cheap setup if you can tolerate blued.
     
  3. Oct 20, 2017 #3

    james 14

    james 14

    james 14

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    I guess getting a conversion is about the only way unless I either buy used or pay much much more for one already done. It seems Savage doesn't sell theirs any longer. There is actually a 45cal gun in the classifieds here for $400 done by slufoot.

    If go the 45/70 route am I limited to sabotless 458 rounds? I assume a standard 40/45 round like an SST wouldn't fit correctly?

    Much research to be done it seems.
     
  4. Oct 20, 2017 #4

    GM54-120

    GM54-120

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    Many of the conversion will shoot sabots just fine. Pittman now offers a .402 in 225gr and 250gr that do work in sabots. The slightly larger size should help if the bore is not as tight.

    Both my 45s are .450x.458. The conversions run a bit looser. Around .451-.452x.458. (usually)

    Current conversions have gotten away from the Savage plug and mostly use a rear sealing plug now.

    60gr IMR4198 should easily be over 2300fps with a 275gr Parker BE bullet.
    [youtube]lUvGqfZ9noc[/youtube]
     
  5. Oct 20, 2017 #5

    james 14

    james 14

    james 14

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    His site is one of the ones I had looked at. I am completely OK with a blued barrel and smokeless powder.

    I didn't think about the land to land diameter being .450 and the grooves being .458. I guess a cartridge can give a little more kick than a ramrod in getting the bullet to dig into the grooves. Sabots would be fine in that case so long as they aren't pushed too hard.

    What do you mean about a rear sealing plug? I know the Savage plugs used a vent liner that needed to be replaced somewhat often. I seem to remember somebody machining a plug that fit in the chamber and could be removed to allow the rifle to shoot a cartridge. I know some shotgun guys who do this but I doubt they're using smokeless.

    I have no experience fixing up rifle primers. I have little concern about a regular 209 being able to ignite the powder. My ML season starts tomorrow and it's supposed to be in the 60s in the morning and 80s in the afternoon. We are getting a cold front, though. I think it might be 45 Thursday morning but I doubt that will have any affect on igniting powder.'

    His site says he'll do a 209 conversion for $200 and I may be able to get a CVA Hunter for less than $300. I'm not set on that idea but it's a starting point.
     
  6. Oct 20, 2017 #6

    GM54-120

    GM54-120

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    Its pretty easy to hit well over 2500fps with a 200gr in sabots. Ive shot quite a few over 2700fps. 58gr of N120 and a 225gr should easily be in the 2500fps range and probably more like upper 2600s.

    The sealing surface is on the primer side instead of the nose of the breach plug. If i was doing one today it would be LRMP with these type modules. The benefits outweigh the initial cost.

    The lip by the hex head is the sealing surface.
    [​IMG]

    All you need for priming is a Lee hand primer and a 45/70 shell plate. Under $30 roughly and a way to deprime them. (small punch and hammer)
     
  7. Oct 20, 2017 #7

    james 14

    james 14

    james 14

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    Is there anything like a vent liner that needs to be replaced?
     
  8. Oct 20, 2017 #8

    ShawnT

    ShawnT

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    In the Picture that he posted above, there is the Breech plug on top, next two parts down are a locking setscrew that is hollow in the center and that little part to the right of the setscrew is a Tungsten Carbide Bushing and it has the flash hole in it. This set up replaces the Vent-liners. Those are the Primer modules at the bottom.
     
  9. Oct 23, 2017 #9

    james 14

    james 14

    james 14

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    I'm trying to justify the cost difference between the LRMP and a standard 209 setup. I know the rifle primer is fancier and likely cleaner but I don't know that the $125 price difference plus the added tools required to fix them up is worth it. I will likely never use the gun in a situation where temperature will be a factor. After 85 degrees, humid and skeeters that could carry me away I could only dream of such a problem.
     
  10. Apr 17, 2019 #10

    Danny Ross

    Danny Ross

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    The regulars on this site - smokeless powder muzzle loaders - sure do make things difficult and expensive. I won't go into my experiments using Unique in ordinary CVA and Rossi .50 caliber muzzleloaders, so as not to violate the rules here, but just one of my test results using 777 gives energies on a par with GM54-120's "200 gr at 2500fps", which is 2776 fp.

    My test rifle in this instance was a Rossi .50, modified to use a 9mm primed cartridge in place of a 209 primer, 85 gr 777 (weighed), a 508gr .451swaged projectile and a 14.4 gr TC #170088252 Sabot. I got 1460 fps, which is 2421 fp of energy. The Rossi is max rated to use 3 Pyrodex 50 grain pellets and Barnes 250 or 300 grain copper projectiles, so hitting 3000 fp shouldn't be a problem.
     
  11. Apr 17, 2019 #11

    richie332

    richie332

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    Once you have shot a quality SML, you will throw away your smoke pole. 300 gr. Pittman AeroMax bullets at 3,000 fps under an inch at 300 yards will make you a believer!
     
  12. Apr 17, 2019 #12

    richie332

    richie332

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    Go to Hank's Muzzle loading and review the many posts by" Richard" to confirm.
     
  13. Apr 17, 2019 #13

    richie332

    richie332

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    Actually, if you are into traditional or old fashion black powder guns, have fun playing those games..........on the other hand if you are looking for a way to extend your rifle hunting season into muzzle loading and still have the same degree of accuracy and reach, then smokeless is the way to go..........without the dirty clean up needed for black powder/subs! Some like traditional archery and others compound and X-bows? To each their own. If your strictly a meat hunter, chuck the lemon wood bow and Port Orford cedar arrows and get an X-bow!:elmer:
     
  14. Apr 22, 2019 #14

    wolfer

    wolfer

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    Check the for sale sites on the forums. I'll include a link to the SML favorites. Get a used gun that is for sale. Lots of guys sell the older guns that have 209 ignition to move on to the latest ignition types. Sorta like going from flintlock to caplock to early cartridge guns. A step up but each still a valid way to go and it's easy to see where the competitive guys spend mucho dinero for diminishing returns.

    As GM54-120 showed the cheapest way to a very good SML is a CVA conversion. Only decision is do you want 209 ignition, modules or direct ignition. If you become an addict, I am, then it's on to dedicated bolters and boolit sizeing and slower powders and muzzle brakes ........... For a beginner, just do a conversion and see how you like it.

    Go with 200 grain X 40 caliber boolits in HSB (harvester smooth blue) sabots and powder of choice (in my 45 I shoot VV120 in the Savage/Brux and H4198 in the Bestill/Omega). I have started using the 225 boolits now, Hawke, Pittman and Fury. They make deer and anything else plenty dead.

    Lurk about some more. A conversion is a great way to start.
    http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/
    http://hanksmessageboard.freeforums.net/

    Enjoy the shooting, Safety 1st - ie mark that ramrod!!. Try, Try again to not become an addict. W
     
  15. Apr 22, 2019 #15

    D55

    D55

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    I prefer DI in my Apex. I started out with 209 and changed due to seeing a small divit starting around the firing pin hole due to leaking at the primer cup. Just an FYI
     

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