long time archer,1st time muzzleloader

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mcorso22

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Hello all, Long time archer,first time muzzleloader.
recently bought some land so I am saying goodbye to shotgun hunting, and am taking the calculated approach to deer hunting with a firearm as i do with archery. The days of crowded and rushed hunting are over for me, so I wish to explore the one shot style of hunting muzzleloading has to offer. That said after reading reviews and comments, im leaning towards the Knight Bighorn (thumbhole stock) muzzleloader. This will be used for the ohio deer seasons. and will most likely use it for coyotes as well for added fun and familiar shooting to keep me accurate. Also looking at the Knight TK2000 for turkey,and I like that these both share the similar platform,So the learning curve shouldnt be too steep to operating these successfully .So my question(s) are what is the recommended setup for said rifle? can the same setup be used for coyotes and deer? or should I explore different setups for each species? also what are good habits for cleaning,swabbing,etc, how often? what about storage of rifle and powders? what tools are needed on bench and in the field to be successful and enjoy the sport? any guidance would be appreciated,thanks
 
Welcome to a great sport and to the forum.

Check out this thread that is a sticky at the top of this forum. It has a lot of great info and a lot of it answers some of your questions. Have a look at it and there are a lot of guys that can help with some of you questions too.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=20963

No reason why you cant shoot Coyotes with a deer load. If you are after hides, a deer load might be a little hard on those, but that would not stop me from shooting one if the opportunity was there. You can even set up a totally different load for them if you chose too.

If you go with the Bighorn, don't go for the Black Horn 209 powder. It is not for Plunger guns. Stick with Black, Pyrodex or 777. You can use plain old Windex for a cleaning/swabbing solution too. Any good gun oil you currently have is good for a muzzleloader too. If you get a rifle set up for 209 primers you don't really need any of the magnum primers with Pyrodex or 777 either. Start off with a standard Win 209. If you get a #11 cap rifle go with a CCI Mag, or similar mag cap. The extra potent mag #11 caps will be better in the cold weather. Get a good Volumetric powder measure such as a TC U-View to measure your charges. Black powder or substitutes are measured in Volume not Weight. With the inline muzzleloaders we are pretty much shooting in the velocity ranges of Pistols like the 44mag and 454. It is cheaper to pick up the sabots and bullets in bulk. Bullets like the Hornady XTP in .452 diameter 250 or 300 grain size is a great start. Another one of you can find them is the Speer Deep Curl. You may need to get a couple different sabots to see what fits the bore with the bullet you choose. You can usually get Harvesters smooth and crushribs at places like Cabela's. MMP sabots can be ordered direct as well as the Harvesters. Start with about 80 grains of powder and work up to about 110 grains or so in 5 grain increments. Lots of rifles will shoot accurately in the 90 to 110 grain range. I would also start right off with loose powder instead of pellets. Loose allows you to get the most out of the rifle/load combo where as pellets limits you in 50 or 30 grain increments.

What ever rifle, or shotgun, you get be sure to give it a very though scrubbing before you first try to shoot to get all the packing lube out of them. Swab between shots for best accuracy with a patch that is just damp (Not dripping wet) with Windex working in short up/down strokes till you get past a crud ring that can form about where the powder and bullet seat., flip that same patch and do that same routine again, follow that with one dry patch, both sides, then reload. When you are finished for the day be sure to clean up and lube the rifle as the powder is corrosive. You can't let it go like a centerfire rifle, Rimfire, or modern cartridge shotgun.
 
thanks for the feedback shawn. Im leaning towards the Knight line cause the share the same design, and im sure once comfortable ill expand and try to experiment with different loads. these both use the full plastic jacket 209 primer system.But
just so im clear use loose triple 7 or pyrodex and avoid the pellets for now.
what do you recommend to use once I unbox them for the first time to clean them? windex? or use windex only between shots followed by a dry patch.
is there different size patches? what size should I use for the 50 cal? the 12g?
is the breech plug removed only after done shooting and cleaning for storage?
best to use breech grease? seen somewhere you can use teflon tape.
the bullet rounds is where im most unclear, you mentioned a few and i will start there. but a 50 cal inline shoots a 50 cal sabot round right? Im assuming when you stated (45.2) you were referring to the actual lead round and the sabot makes up the rest to be 50,right?
what about reloading in the field? is it wise to preload the grain? is that what those tubes i see are for,or those just to hold sabot rounds?
lastly, storage.
powder needs to be air tight? and rifles lubed as a standard firearm? but i need to swab barrel with windex to remove "storage" oil from the barrel prior to shooting,right?
sorry for the elementary questions, i just want to make sure im doing it right from the start and have optimal results,without degrading the life of my rifles. ive seen neglected bores before on used rifles and until now it has scared me away from pursuing muzzleloading in general. thanks again for the heads up, look forward to hearing back from you.
 
No Problem that what this site is all about. I'll try to go over your questions one at a time.

Im leaning towards the Knight line cause the share the same design, and im sure once comfortable ill expand and try to experiment with different loads. these both use the full plastic jacket 209 primer system.

I completely understand that line of thinking and not a thing wrong with that at all. I love knights myself as you can see from my signature line

But just so im clear use loose triple 7 or pyrodex and avoid the pellets for now.

While pellets are ok there are several downsides to them. They don't come in a sealed container, so they can draw moisture eventually if not used up or stored in Ziploc bags with desiccant packs or even vacuum packed if you don't shoot them up. You are locked in to a charge weight in increments of 30 or 50 grains per pellet, and they are more expensive than Loose Powder. Loose powder has more advantages, Comes in a sealed container that is re-sealed when the lid is screwed back on so you can store it for longer periods, and you can increase or decrease charge weights in any size you want, and it is easier to ignite than pellets. Many newbies think Pellets are Easier to use but Loose is really not hard work with. Most of us recommend it right off.

what do you recommend to use once I unbox them for the first time to clean them? windex? or use windex only between shots followed by a dry patch.

Right out of the box I would clean it with any good gun solvent you have such as Hoppies, Butches etc. since it will strip that Preservative coating off. Some will just use real hot to boiling water with soap (Such as dawn dishwashing liquid). I also go a round with JB Bore cleaner in mine, but it is not always needed. Just give it a real good scrubbing and then follow that with a good gun oil that you might already have.

is there different size patches? what size should I use for the 50 cal? the 12g?

What ever size you can use on the 12g would work for the 50 caliber rifle. I don't have a 12g but for 50 and 54 caliber rifles I like 2" or 2 1/2" round flannel No need for having 2 different patches. I would bet a 2 1/2" will work for both.

is the breech plug removed only after done shooting and cleaning for storage?

You only need to remove the Breech plug when you are finished shooting for the day or after you are done hunting.

best to use breech grease? seen somewhere you can use teflon tape.

I have went totally to Teflon tape, it is a lot cleaner to use. I use the plain old White tape as it is the easiest to find. Wrap the plug like you would a Pipe fitting but start at the end that goes in the action first and let it wrap over the flat end of the plug to help seal it at the lands and groves. After wrapping it I then gently run my finger nail in the threads pressing it down in them then insert it and seat the plug all the way in. Get yourself a good 3/4" round nylon brush and when you remove the plug use it to remove the scraps of tape and also to clean the threads and action. Grease is fine too, Just messier

the bullet rounds is where im most unclear, you mentioned a few and i will start there. but a 50 cal inline shoots a 50 cal sabot round right? Im assuming when you stated (45.2) you were referring to the actual lead round and the sabot makes up the rest to be 50,right?

For a 50 caliber rifle you have lots of options in bullets to shoot, Just have to match the right sabot for the bullet and caliber. Such as Black sabots (often marked 45x50) are used for a .451 - .452 diameter bullet (45 caliber) use bullets that are made for the 45 long colt or 454 Casull not bullets of that size designed for 45acp since they are too fragile, you can also use Green Sabots (44x50) with bullets in the .429- .430 diameter designed for the 44mag. Then there is a sabot that will allow the use of .40 caliber bullets (40x50), and also one designed for a .458 diameter bullet. The more common option used is the Black sabots and 45 caliber bullets. You can get the Pre-Packed combos too but buying in bulk is just cheaper.
Here is a link to a good write up on sabot/bullet sizes. viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9798

what about reloading in the field? is it wise to preload the grain? is that what those tubes i see are for,or those just to hold sabot rounds?

Right on. The use of Plastic Vials, old Film canisters, or Speed loaders is what most of us use. They allow you to pre-charge them at home and carry them to the range ready to go. Get a bottle funnel that screws onto the bottle to pour into your measure. I really like the plastic vials sold in the sticky at the top of the Classifieds, they are inexpensive, seal up good and you can even use them for hunting. The commercial speed loaders work well, just more expensive.

lastly, storage.
powder needs to be air tight? and rifles lubed as a standard firearm?

Yes, moisture is a bad thing for BlackPowder or subs (Substitutes). If powder gets wet, then it don't ignite well or at all, plus when the rifle is fired any moisture that gets to the fouling can start the corrosion process if left uncleaned and lubed.

but i need to swab barrel with windex to remove "storage" oil from the barrel prior to shooting,right?

Correct. You can use a patch that is very lightly dampened with solvent, Alcohol or Windex (Some like to mix the Windex with Alcohol too). Just need one damp patch followed by one dry. Next take a dry patch and run it down with the ramrod till it touches the breech plug and leave it there. Now, point the rifle in a safe direction, and Fire off a Primer, You will see it push the rod up a few inches. Push the patch back down then remove the rod and look at the end of the patch, it should be burned. I do that 3 or 4 times, running the patch down and up just spreads the primer fouling around. The patch on the rod gives you a little pressure and popping the caps is to remove any oil in the Breech plug and make sure it is clear and dry. Oil can contaminate the charge and cause a miss-fire or fail to fire. This will also foul the bore a bit and can help with the first shot being in the same spot as the next. One more Tip to do when you first load up, once you drop the charge press that bullet/sabot down till it stops and then press a but more to really seat the charge. Now before removing the ramrod, wrap a piece of tape around the rod at the muzzle. This is what is called a witness mark and is a good visual indicator that you have seated the bullet all they way down and to the same point each time you load up. Once you determine the load you plan to hut with remove the tape and permanently scribe the rod with a knife. Consistency is Accuracy in the muzzleloader world.

sorry for the elementary questions, i just want to make sure im doing it right from the start and have optimal results,without degrading the life of my rifles.

No problem. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask! :wink: There is a lot of guys on this forum with Tons of Knowledge that are more than willing to help. The manual that will be with your rifle/shotgun is also a great place to start.

ive seen neglected bores before on used rifles and until now it has scared me away from pursuing muzzleloading in general.

Yup, there are a lot of those around. It is usually from a guy that did not clean and lube when he put the rifle away. Every now and then we even hear about one that had a charge left in it! :shock: When buying used, you have to know what too look for when buying from a shop or on a site like Gunbroker, or an individual. You can find good deals or real bummers too. The classified here is also a good place to get a good used rifle from guys that know how to take care of them. Some can be saved, some not.

thanks again for the heads up, look forward to hearing back from you.

Your Welcome. And again welcome to a great sport. One thing you will find out is that this is a very addicting sport! 8)
 
Welcome, Knight fan myself. I'd read up, maybe hook up with a local shooter if able, not essential though. It would help speed things along.

I've stacked up many deer and varmints with my Knights, about never use the backup slug gun. Why not just look for a Knight Elite, Extreme, or a new Mountaineer? That gives you a top of the line gun that shoots Blackhorn 209 powder.

Muzzle-loaders take a little more fiddling with than the average center fire, to achieve peak performance. Most of that fiddling is developing a proper load, bore fit, charge measurement, then care and cleaning after shooting. Many M-L's end up corroded due to lack of care after shooting.

If your goal is deer season this Fall, you better get on the fast track.
 
Thanks for the feedback.
Muskrat, whats the difference from bighorn to the elite,extreme,and mountianeer? Whats the difference from prynex ,triple 7 and black horn 209? In a nutshell. Ill go back and look at these models to see if i can tell soon as I get a minute
 
mcorso22 said:
Thanks for the feedback.
Muskrat, whats the difference from bighorn to the elite,extreme,and mountianeer? Whats the difference from prynex ,triple 7 and black horn 209? In a nutshell. Ill go back and look at these models to see if i can tell soon as I get a minute

A few reasons many of us moved over to B209 powder is that it's 'high energy', more FPS than many substitutes, and it gives one a little breathing room with corrosion onset and having to clean right away. While on a hunting trip I can easily let the gun go for a few days after shooting with out cleaning.

I set my chronograph up once with a guy shooting 'Shockey's Gold' powder, that was the last day he used that powder, I was shooting B 209.

I would not buy a gun today that didn't reliably shoot B209 powder, even if I had to spend more. Nothing wrong if your State regs give limitations, talking to the guy that wants a modern inline.

I mention the Elite, Extreme, and the newer Knight Mountaineer because they can shoot any propellant you stuff in them, unlike a 'plunger' gun. They are also high quality, and stack up deer like nothing else. Did I mention their trigger is easily adjustable and rivals the best center fire trigger? O.K., just a little Knight bias bleeding through, there are other good choices too.

Do you have a budget in mind? Always be careful buying a used M-L, many fall short with proper care. The 50 cal makes the most sense with available loadings, though I've used the 45 cal the last few years.
 
The only thing I can add to what Muskrat said is that the Elite, Extreme, and Mountaineer, or the Ultra light for that matter are Bolt actions so they lock up tight. BH generates more pressure and blowback that can cause a "Plunger" gun to actually recock itself when firing. You will not have that happen with Pyrodex or 777 in the plunger guns, so nothing to worry about there.
 
I once owned a Knight Disc rifle, three Knight LK rifles, and a Knight TK2000. I sold the Disc rifle. Not because it shot bad, but because it sold well.

My LK rifles all have 22 inch barrels and I shoot #11 caps as an ignition system. I shoot black powder, pyrodex rs, and triple seven powder in them.
DSCN4521.jpg


DSCN4519.jpg


with the right powder charge it will even shoot round ball.

muzzleloaders012-001.jpg


Since the rifle has a short barrel I don't shoot strong loads. But with a simple 4x scope it will really shoot.

muzzleloaders021.jpg


That's another of my LK rifles but I have a 1x32mm scope on it. Its an amazing brush rifle.

knightlk001.jpg


The Bighorn is the next step up. If I owned a Bighorn I would shoot Triple Seven out of it. While you have to swab between shots, they have amazing accuracy and power. Ask Sabotloader about a Bighorn. I think he used to own one.
 
Ok so I read up on the BH209 and the pros to shooting this are a no brainer.
I am aware that the TK2000 doesnt like this powder,correct? A "plunger" style ML in general,right?
So looking at Knight disc extreme. And from just googling it briefly looks like you need a bare primer breech
Conversion? But elsewhere i read that the "new disc extremes" have the proper
Breech plug to handle the new powders. The forum i was reading said they went with a third party
Plug from lehigh
209 Breech Plug & Primer Holder
SKU-# M900044
$42.00
But went to their site and its no longer offered?
So is the new knight disc extremes good to go for shooting
BH209 or not? If not which knight will?
 
I just went to 'Sportsmans Guide' to see what's available and the prices with new Knights, a handful of other online retailers too.

Yes, any of those 'new' Knights(bolt action type) will shoot B209 powder. The issue becomes with or without the plastic jacket. There are pros and cons each way, either will shoot B209 reliably. I use a breech plug without the plastic disc, bare primer, mostly because it's much cleaner.

You now buy the 'Lehigh' style plug through Knight or another vendor. I think you can order a gun with only that bare primer breech plug, if directly from Knight. The 'vent liner' is fixed in place with the version from Knight, but not all that big of a deal.

I would probably look to the bare primer breech plug and just stay with that.

Not supposed to use B209 with the 'plunger' guns.

I'd like to say, one doesn't NEED the tricked out 2000+ fps M-L to hunt or kill a deer, a 'side-lock' 54 cal with American Pioneer powder will get it done. I'm just putting out info for the guy that wants all odds in their favor.


The knight site allows you to pick the breech plug system with the gun, bare or plastic jacket.

They also sell a breech plug to convert to bare primer/ no plastic holder, #M900020.
 
Nice shooting cuyaga!
Thanks for the clarity regarding the breech plug. So i can go with a disc extreme and shoot anything with it
And going Non jacket will produce desired shooting using BH209? Thens prolly the way ill go. Im sure once comfortable, ill pick up a few varities of muzzle loaders available and start playing with different load arragements etc. I just want one that i can hunt with,target shoot and not have to invest a day to clean it to protect my investment. This is all kinda overwhelming to be honest. And im sure im making this harder then it is, but I just want to have all my needs met,and i know ones out there that will suit them.
Ill look this eve for a disc extreme with the non jacket plug and let ya know what i do
 
Knight Disc Extreme 45 Cal 26 " Blued DL656U

Auction # 448949815
Please if you are the buyer or seller to see more helpful information.


Knight Disc 26" S/S Light Contour Comp 45Cal 45

Auction # 449143632
Please if you are the buyer or seller to see more helpful information. Those are Gunbroker auction numbers.


Just throwing up a few NIB 'older stock' Knights for consideration. There are others, mostly used. These would take the red discs, unless you got the non- plastic jacket breech plug. They also likely do not have the 'quick-release' for the bolt, which can also be added.

The new production Knight breech plugs do not fit these older models. Other than that, I'd get something like these over the $800 current Knights. Not a thing wrong with new production, just saying for the cost difference. There may be a NIB 50 cal floating around too. Like I said earlier, used is O.K., if you are able to inspect it some way or another.
 
mcorso22 said:
Nice shooting cuyaga!
Thanks for the clarity regarding the breech plug. So i can go with a disc extreme and shoot anything with it
And going Non jacket will produce desired shooting using BH209? Thens prolly the way ill go. Im sure once comfortable, ill pick up a few varities of muzzle loaders available and start playing with different load arragements etc. I just want one that i can hunt with,target shoot and not have to invest a day to clean it to protect my investment. This is all kinda overwhelming to be honest. And im sure im making this harder then it is, but I just want to have all my needs met,and i know ones out there that will suit them.
Ill look this eve for a disc extreme with the non jacket plug and let ya know what i do

In my Disc I went to the Lehigh bare primer conversion. While the jacket primers will shoot 209 you loose a lot of the clean breech shooting that the powder pushes.

There seems to be a trend that shooting the powder that does not foul the breech are is the way to go because you don't have to clean it. Well that's just not true. Any powder you shoot... you have to clean the rifle. And when I shoot BH209 out of my Optima and Genesis, the breech plug is a devil to clean. The best way to clean the breech plug is take it out and soak it (thank you forum member that turned me on to that trick). I soak the breech plug and while it sits and soaks, the barrel cleans with a few solvent swabs with Black Horn 209.

But the real truth... lets say you get a Bighorn, so no BH209 because its a plunger gun. Its still easy to clean. I shoot Black Powder 90% of the time. As most will tell you.. I never liked black powder because it so hard to clean. Well that's hog wash. The fouling is very soft. And yes it might take a few extra patches with soap and water on them, but it still cleans easy. In my LK rifles, I take out the hammer and the breech plug, set that aside and I can clean the barrel with five patches. BlackHorn is not the answer to cleaning. Yes it might be a little easier. But for all the headaches its caused me, I will stick with other powders once my supply is gone. I will admit the one nice advantage of BH209 is you don't have to swab between shots.

But if you want to shoot Black Horn, get the extreme, and get the conversion to the lehigh ignition system. Then all the problems are done. And the rifle will be cleaner then with most powders. But with any powder the longest it takes me to clean a rifle is fifteen minutes.
 
Ok so I picked up the disc extreme carbonknight/SS . I like the feel of it and hope to get out in the field and dial it in here soon. Im still not clear on the non jacket breech plug. I see they have one in knights sight but doesnt match the number you guys recommended. I want the breech plug (M900044) correct?
 
mcorso22 said:
Ok so I picked up the disc extreme carbonknight/SS . I like the feel of it and hope to get out in the field and dial it in here soon. Im still not clear on the non jacket breech plug. I see they have one in knights sight but doesnt match the number you guys recommended. I want the breech plug (M900044) correct?
Very nice rifle! What ignition came with your new Extreme? They can be had with the western or Full Plastic Jacket ignitions.

Depending on what you have currently in the new rifle you may need to get the whole conversion Kit to start. The Bolt and primer end of the plug is where the differences are. If you have the one with the Plastic jackets you will need the whole Kit to get the bolt adapter to hold the naked primer. If you have one with the western Kit you will need to change out the bolt too IIRC.

Kit...... From FPJ to Bare209
http://www.knightrifles.com/product/bar ... rsion-kit/


This is the naked primer plug you need for Bare209, but again if you have the FPJ ignition you need the adapter too in the above kit.
http://www.knightrifles.com/product/bar ... eech-plug/
 
Thanks, it has the full plastic jacket breech, so im gonna order the non plastic jacket breech kit, 44 dollars and change with shipping so I can have the option to shoot both styles and see which I like better, at some point I might pick up the western conversion kit so im covered on all fronts. Who knows. The TK2000 is next on my list. So I might just wait to play with BH209 till im comfortable shooting both with triple 7 . But after reading alot of posts in here, i can see me shooting the extreme at targets often to "play" with different loads,etc. ill let you guys know, once i have the rifle stripped and cleaned and reassembled.
 
Congrats on the new M-L, it should be wonderful.

Yes, look over the manual to get familiar with it. Be ready to clean it well after shooting. Once clean I leave a light oil coat inside and out to protect the gun until next time. One just needs to ensure it's clear and dry before the next loading, dry patch and wipe down. I often leave my breech plug out while the gun us stored. No I haven't lost one yet.

The bolt unscrews from the bolt sleeve, practice so you can take it apart to clean.

Just getting familiar I'd just shoot 80 grains by volume of powder. With a 50 cal I'd hunt with 110-120 grains of powder. You just need the other breech plug with the stainless primer holder to go with bare primers. I'll try a picture.

Then you have the scope, saboted bullets and all the rest to sort out.
 
Well, Was able to sit down, go thru the manual and then disassemble the extreme pretty easily. I bought the "accessory starter kit" with the rifle, so i used the included cleaning solvent and then dry patched it. followed by the oil. It really cleaned up nicely. It looked pretty rough while that preserve type oil was in there. So scopes, any to look at or any to stay away from? If so let me know and Ill start looking at those, but I am curious to see how ill do with the fiber sights. They seem pretty well done. I did order the Non plastic jacket breech plug,and after cleaning this,Doing the switch will be a breeze. Thanks again for all the help. Im pretty pleased with the feel and ease of cleaning this rifle is.
 

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