Newb needs help choosing a ML for long range shooting

[GunLobbyist]

I was drawn for an excellent ML hunt in AZ and need to decide on a gun. It's primarily a wide open country mule deer hunt right in the middle of the rut. Shots will likely be 200 yards+ so I need to find the most accurate rifle I can afford. I already have a top of the line scope (Leupold VX7) I will use, so I can put more $$$ in the rifle. I guess I will go as high as $1,000 if I must (maybe a bit more). (I'm gonna have to sell a centerfire rifle to fund this deal :shock

I just started looking at guns online in the past few days and I am struck by how few choices there seem to be (what am I missing?) and I'm already confused trying to learn. I am a very experienced centerfire rifle hunter, but not a ML hunter.

I am thinking of a Knight, a TC or maybe a used Savage Model 10 (but the prices I have seen are VERY high for Savages I'm assuming because they are discontinued and desireable).

So here is my first set of questions:

1) Which of the Knight rifles is likely to be the most accurate with a given load?
2) Is that Knight Ultra-Lite too light to shoot comfortably? I assume I will need to shoot quite a bit at the range to get used to it and sight in and a 6LB rifle shooting 300 grain bullets seems like it might really be uncomfortable to shoot enough to become proficient.
3) How about the TC selections? The Pro-Hunter FX looks interesting and may be easier to clean.

One option is I may be able to borrow a Savage M10 for the season and just use that...but I do like the idea of getting into a new hunting discipline and the excuse to buy a new gun!

Ok so have at the newbie...forgive me if i am repeating questions that have been asked by others, but I have a lot to learn in a short(ish) amount of time. Hunt is in December.

GL

 

[Widude]

Welcome. First off it sounds like you can use a scope, which makes it easier. I'm not real big on the ultra long range M-L shots on game unless one is well versed and practices a lot. Not to say it can't be workable. There are guys that shoot pronghorn and mule deer with archery, so setups can be adjusted even in open country.

If the regs allow, the Savage M-L is a player. You really want a gun that will shoot Blackhorn 209 powder, if not the smokeless with the Savage. Where you plan to hunt do the regs allow shotgun primers, saboted bullets, and all? What State and type of hunt?

The 45 cal is an option, more FPS and a flatter trajectory, look at some ballistics. The more common 50 is fine too.

A M-L takes time to setup, practice with, test loads and then care for. Unless your buddy was on the hunt with you the 'borrowing' idea seems problematic.

The Savage gets some fine reviews. I've hung my hat with Knight over the years, good choices there. That new Cooper M-L looks great, if it's available. If you are new to M-L Shooting and care I'd read up here then maybe hook up with a knowledgable contact to speed things along.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Omega 45 caliber.

 

[GM54-120]

The Savage MLII is very much upto the task but they can be finicky about loads. Its not a rifle i usually recommend to first time ML hunters. They are a much better rifle once converted to 45cal with a Pacnor, Brux or McGowen .450 x.458 barrel. Much less finicky and deadly accurate.

I would double check AZs ML hunting laws in regards to legal powders for ML hunitng. It appears only real BP and synthetic BP are legal for ML hunts.
http://www.azgfd.gov/eservices/special_ ... -4-304.pdf

This of course would not prevent you from using Blackhorn209

 

[GunLobbyist]

Welcome. First off it sounds like you can use a scope, which makes it easier. I'm not real big on the ultra long range M-L shots on game unless one is well versed and practices a lot. Not to say it can't be workable. There are guys that shoot pronghorn and mule deer with archery, so setups can be adjusted even in open country.

If the regs allow, the Savage M-L is a player. You really want a gun that will shoot Blackhorn 209 powder, if not the smokeless with the Savage. Where you plan to hunt do the regs allow shotgun primers, saboted bullets, and all? What State and type of hunt?

The 45 cal is an option, more FPS and a flatter trajectory, look at some ballistics. The more common 50 is fine too.

A M-L takes time to setup, practice with, test loads and then care for. Unless your buddy was on the hunt with you the 'borrowing' idea seems problematic.

The Savage gets some fine reviews. I've hung my hat with Knight over the years, good choices there. That new Cooper M-L looks great, if it's available. If you are new to M-L Shooting and care I'd read up here then maybe hook up with a knowledgable contact to speed things along.

The hunt is in Arizona and I believe the only restriction is blackpowder or synthetic blackpowder only. Everything else is legal, from what I can tell. I had no idea Cooper made an ML...wow! I have other Coopers and now that will have to be in the mix.

With the Knight rifles is one version more accurate than the other? Is the Ultra-Lite's weight an issue in terms or recoil?

In terms or load development and testing...I have extensive experience with load development for lots of CF rifles so that doesn't scare me. I WILL shoot the gun a lot before the hunt. For this particular hunt in AZ getting in really close is not likely...it's maybe just a bit better than table top pronghorn habitat...so I gotta find the best long range solution I can afford.

 

[GM54-120]

One of my rifles weighs under 5lbs bare...Yep a NULA model 20 is just under 5lbs and almost 7lbs ready to hunt. My loads are pretty stout and recoil is not that bad with the exception of a very hot load i shot one year. Stock design and how well the rifle fits you makes a huge difference. I would have no problem shooting a Knight U-lite with full power hunting loads. They cant be worse than my typical ULA loads and the rifles are close in weight.

I cant say one Knight is more accurate than another. The old Super DISC 45s are amazing shooters if you know what to feed them. Both the Super DISC and a Mountaineer 45 have done well lately at the Friendship shoots without sabots. Shooting sabotless can take a 45cal to a whole new level of performance.

The Cooper ML would make a fine addition to any collection. Thats a lot of custom rifle for $1500.

 

[Anonymous]

The T/C Pro-Hunter FX, Knight Mountaineer or Ultra-Lite would be good choices. If recoil is something of notice, stick with the 50-cals, instead of the 45s. I find the 45s to be a little harsher, using magnum loads and 300 gr. bullets.

CVA Accura V2 with 30" barrel should be in stores this fall. That's a good shooter too.

 

[bestill]

I will throw a curve in the mix. Ck out a cva apex45/70 then have proper breech plug installed. This will be a quality economical build that you can step up the blackhorn charge and shoot high b.c. 325 parker match hunter.
Easy 2300 fps and will be deadly to 400-500 yds with proper trigger puller

 

[GM54-120]

The T/C Pro-Hunter FX, Knight Mountaineer or Ultra-Lite would be good choices. If recoil is something of notice, stick with the 50-cals, instead of the 45s. I find the 45s to be a little harsher, using magnum loads and 300 gr. bullets.

CVA Accura V2 with 30" barrel should be in stores this fall. That's a good shooter too.

I really dont see any difference in a 45cal vs a 50cal both shooting a 300gr bullet. In the same rifle the 45cal may even kick less do to more weight. Some models use the same size OD barrel so the 45cal weighs more. I believe the Mountaineer, Super DISC and Extreme all fall in this category. A 200gr SST does quite well at longer ranges. Its comfortable to shoot in every Knight 45 ive tried and a pussy cat in my old Accura 45.

I haven't see any reviews from actual owners of the 30" Accura yet. Paid or compensated endorsements mean very little to me. IMO its too early to tell if that longer barrel does anything besides add more weight/length. Adding 3-4" to possibly gain 100fps isnt my idea of a good trade off.

 

[GM54-120]

I will throw a curve in the mix. Ck out a cva apex45/70 then have proper breech plug installed. This will be a quality economical build that you can step up the blackhorn charge and shoot high b.c. 325 parker match hunter.
Easy 2300 fps and will be deadly to 400-500 yds with proper trigger puller

Ive talked to several people with this conversion and all seem very pleased. Steel frame, good trigger and a centerfire grade barrel, Plus you can always add barrels with ease. Ive handled one and preferred the way it felt to all the other CVA offerings. It would be a lot prettier if Dikar/Bergara would start sending those Euro model wood stocks state side.

 

[bestill]

Yes wood option would be awesome upgrade.

 

[azoutback]

Would your tag happen to be 12b west? If so I have the same tag

 

[Hac]

azoutback, so your the one that drew my tag, congrats on your tag, very cool hunt

 

[txhunter58]

I hope you have enough respect for your quarry that you don't try and buy a gun this late and expect to be proficient at 200+ yards. You just don't have the time. Muzzleloaders are not like centerfire where you can buy one off the shelf, try a few different bullets and go hunting. Muzzleloading is kind of like starting from scratch and reloading bullets without ever having done it before. You have to experiment with with different powders (in different amounts) and different bullets (in different sizes) and figure out what that particular gun likes. The GUN TELLS YOU what is acccuate at long range. People can tell you what has worked in their gun, but it doesn't mean it will work in your gun.

There is no "best/most accurate/long range" gun. All of the guns mentioned so far could be good long range weapons, but only after lots of range time and lots of research. The "accuracy" factor is YOU and achieved by lots of range time and experimenting. There is no quick fix.

So get a gun, practice and get as close as you can. There are not that many people who can shoot muzzleloaders accurately past 200 yards, and most of them have had years to prepare. Good luck.

 

[bestill]

I totally agree the ethics and skills of shooter is a unknown varible.
Bit with advancements in components and equipment a fast twist 45 shooting sabotless with adjustable sizing die can easily shoot 2" groups at 200 yds in one afternoon at the range
The gun will do it question is can shooter.

 

[txhunter58]

"But with advancements in components and equipment a fast twist 45 shooting sabotless with adjustable sizing die can easily shoot 2" groups at 200 yds in one afternoon at the range"

Not for a newbie: There are so many different new things to learn. With a centerfire, you just load a magazine and shoot. There are so many steps to shooting a muzzleloader that are so different. What powder in what amount? Some powders need to be swabbed between each shot, some don't. What do you use to swab with : spit, solvent? If using the BH 209, how do you clean the breechplug? How much force do you apply to seat the bullet. Which bullet/which size do you use? Which sabot or do I go sabotless? 45 or 50 cal? Which primer do you use......the list is long. And you need to get all of that down first before you even think about trying to shoot long range. Also with a centerfire rifle once you get a particular ammo shooting well, you can pretty much look at charts and figure the hold on longer shots. But with a muzzleloader there are so many variables, you can't rely on some chart. You really need to shoot at 250, 300, etc to see where your load hits. Do you have a range where you can shoot out to 300+ yards?

For someone who needs to learn fast, it sure helps to have someone who has been doing it awhile to be there for the first few sessions. If at all possible, you would be better off borrowing a friends muzzy that has already been figured out. If you get a gun soon and shoot A LOT, you may be able to get it done, and I hope you do. But just remember, this is a gun that shoots big chunks of lead in an arc and past 200 yards it drops fast. As with any weapon, know your limits and don't exceed them. I once turned down a shot at a 6x6 bull at 46 yards with my bow because I had set a hard limit of 40 yards. That was tough, but I don't regret it and have a great memory. Assuming you ever come back to this thread, good luck and hope you get a big one. And if you come back, I will give some advice to help you get stated on finding the right load.

 

[GunLobbyist]

Well I have been hand loading centerfire rifles for 20 years from 223 to 458 Lott and none of them, not a single one was I able to hand load a recipe, fill the magazine and shoot tight groups with it! Every one was a chore to develop the right load. So that part I get. BUT the bottom line is that if you don't start with a good barrel, a good trigger, and a well made action all the precision loading in the world won't get you tight groups. So that is why I came to this page to ask. I have NO allusions this is going to be simple. I just want to avoid buying a crap gun and being frustrated with little time to switch horses.

After a ton of reading and research, I am leaning toward having Luke from Arrowhead (http://www.smokelessmz.com) build me one of his customs on a Rem 700 ML action, with a Brux barrel, and a Jewell trigger. I will be sizing his Arrowhead performance bullets with a Swing Lock sizer to shoot sabot less using BH209 (smokeless is not allowed in AZ). I think I will be using either a Leupold VX7 2.5-10X or a Leupold VX3 4.5 - 14X scope.

Anybody know anything about these guns and have any advice given this new information?

The country I will be hunting ain't the Pennsylvania deer woods. So I know I'm gonna have to reach out. The closest I've shot a mule deer here in AZ is 200 yards.

BTW, if i get the gun now and start shooting I will have 4 months to practice, if i can't figure it out by then I'm probably in trouble.

Thank you all for your advice!

 

[alaska viking]

I am also new to this gig. Don't be afraid. It is fun, my particular rifle, (A T/C Impact, entry level rifle), is incredibly accurate, as in 3/4" groups at 100 yards.
also shot 6" groups at the same distance. You obviously know to find what your rifle likes, as did I.
My particular gun hated certain rounds, and loved others. Have fun discovering yours.

 

[GunLobbyist]

I am also new to this gig. Don't be afraid. It is fun, my particular rifle, (A T/C Impact, entry level rifle), is incredibly accurate, as in 3/4" groups at 100 yards.
also shot 6" groups at the same distance. You obviously know to find what your rifle likes, as did I.
My particular gun hated certain rounds, and loved others. Have fun discovering yours.

Thanks! I do hope it's fun and not too frustrating.

 

[alaska viking]

As an aside, I spent 2 years in Payson, and hunted, (successfully), coues whit tails down in the very south-east area of the state, as well as the boot-heel in New Mexico. PM me if you need info for those areas.