Packaged Bullets w/Sabots

[cleboje]

Just a couple of observations and one question between the Hornady 250 gr SST w/packaged Sabots and the TC 250 gr Shockwaves w/packaged Sabots...

The bullets appear to be the same, except for tip color (red for Hornady SST and yellow for TC Shockwave).

The one big difference between the two is the packaged Sabots.

Hornady SST packaged sabot is black with thin petals...appears cheap and flimsy, but loads easily with only moderate pressure needed to seat the bullet.

TC Shockwave packaged sabot is black with thick petals...appears firm and sturdy, but loading requires some real muscle to seat the bullet.

The TC Shockwaves do seem to print much tighter groups (sub 1 inch) at 100 yards!

I know it is better to buy sabots in bulk to get the best available, but does anyone know which aftermarket sabot approximates the packaged sabots in the Hornady SST and TC Shockwave packaged sets? :?:

 

[big6x6]

Your observations are EXACTLY why for the most part I discard every sabot pre-packaged with bullets and use what I KNOW is the same sabot.

For YEARS Hornady .452cal SSTs came with MMP HPH-12 sabots, MMPs tightest fitting sabot. Shockwaves always came with HPH-24s..a sabot that was approx 0.002 SMALLER than the HPH-12. I have been told(in other words I don't know for sure! ) that now both the SSTs and Shockwaves come with the HPH-24. I really doesn't matter to me because I never use the sabot that comes with either and substitute a sabot of known entity.

It is my opinion that EVERY sabot shooting muzzleloader should have at the very least 3 different 45/50 sabots on hand. Those being the MMP short black OR HPH-12, the MMP HPH-24, and the Harvester short black. With those sabots and practially ANY 45cal bullet one can find the proper sabot/bullet combination for best performance.

 

[LFM]

Is it a trial and error to get the sabot matched up with the bullet / projectile which works the best with which sabot. I know each manufacturer has their own idea of which one is best for theirs but is it tighter the better or is it part to do with just how tight it goes down the barrel or is there a happy medium that you just have to find?

What would be the best sabot to use in a Knight Disc Elite 50 cal with Shockwave 250 grain projectile which one would have the best performance with 100 grains of BH209? And how tight will it be to the sabots that came with the Shockwaves?

I just can't understand why you buy different sabots but there must be something to it and getting tighter groups.

LFM

 

[big6x6]

Using your own sabots is a good idea for two reasons. Reason ONE...the bore diameter of muzzleloader barrels varies. For this reason it should be obvious that it would be impossible to make a single bullet/sabot combination fit every muzzleloader barrel properly. On the two extreme bore diameters and using the same sabot/bullet combination, the sabot/bullet may be almost IMPOSSIBLE to push down the bore in muzzleloader one while the same bullet/sabot combination may practially FALL down the bore of muzzleloader two. A happy medium is the desired bullet/sabot/bore fit(although I like them more on the difficult to seat side of "happy medium" than on the easy to seat side.) MMP makes 45/50 sabots of different outside diameter making this proper sabot/bullet to barrel fit a reality! In practically every instance a tight fitting bullet/sabot yields better accuracy. Reason TWO....when you are using your own sabots..you know EXACTLY the sabot you are using and that remains constant. You are eliminating a variable in the quest for best accuracy.

 

[cleboje]

big6x6

Thanks for putting the bullet/sabot information in terms that are easy to understand...

I can always count on this forum to get the right answers to the questions I have.

Now, I can get on with ordering some quality bulk sabots and hit the range to see which combination shoots the best...

Thanks again for sharing!

 

[ShawnT]

Chuck,

Is the MMP Short Black sabots and the MMP HPH 12 the same sabot? I have seen both terms and wondered if they are the same sabot.

ShawnT

 

[SteveB]

Can someone post a source for the Harvester short sabot?

Thanks
Steve

 

[double brow]

SteveB........Midsouth Shooters Supply has them

 

[SteveB]

Thanks!!

Steve

 

[LFM]

So how do you know which sabot works best? Do you just start buying different Sabots in packs and find the one that is semi tight going down your barrel with the bullet you are planning on using? I am not up on all the possible sabots that might work with my Rifle and I prefer not to buy something that if it does not work for me to throw out because I won't use them again. There is such a wide range of different sabots which ones would you try and can you but a single sabot to test in your barrel. Will MMP sell someone a single or two sabots so you can test them.

And how do you start and know which ones to try?

Can someone give some suggestions as to which ones to try for a Knight Disc Elite in 50 Cal and using Shock Wave 250 grain bullets to start? And where you can buy a single or two of the ones you want to try?

I am no up on just what diameter or caliber the bullets that come with the T/C Shockwave 250 when I checked the MMP (a sponsor here) I look at the sabots but was lost as to which ones and they come in packs of 50 so I would like to narrow it down a bit as to not buy so many and then have them left over the ones that are not going to work.

Also is the 3 Petal a good idea or not? And what about the Sub Bases? Sorry for all the questions but trying to learn and not spend a lot of extra money and get the most out of my Knight ML.

Thanks,
Mike / LFM

 

[Lee 9]

LFM, it is just not that simple.
Even the best companies use a much larger tolorance for muzzle loaders than for centerfires, because there is no national standard.
My own way of dealing with it is to take out the breach plug and push several bullet sabot combinations through then take the ones that are tight enough and not to tight to the range and try them. I keep 4 on hand MMP12, MMP-HPH24, Harvestor short black and the harvestor Crush Rib, there are two for 44 cal bulets and the Harvestor long black which I do not plan on using at the moment. I hope this helps. Lee

 

[big6x6]

Chuck,

Is the MMP Short Black sabots and the MMP HPH 12 the same sabot? I have seen both terms and wondered if they are the same sabot.

ShawnT

They aren't the SAME sabot, but the same DIAMETER sabot(with a bullet in them of course!) The MMP short black will do anything the HPH-12 will do for less money. If I had to have one pack of sabots it would be the MMP short black.

I keep 4 on hand MMP12, MMP-HPH24, Harvestor short black and the harvestor Crush Rib

You've GOT it dude! :yeah: For the HUGE sum of about $22.00 plus shipping from Midsouth, you have all you need!

 

[Busta]

So how do you know which sabot works best? Do you just start buying different Sabots in packs and find the one that is semi tight going down your barrel with the bullet you are planning on using? I am not up on all the possible sabots that might work with my Rifle and I prefer not to buy something that if it does not work for me to throw out because I won't use them again. There is such a wide range of different sabots which ones would you try and can you but a single sabot to test in your barrel. Will MMP sell someone a single or two sabots so you can test them.

And how do you start and know which ones to try?

Can someone give some suggestions as to which ones to try for a Knight Disc Elite in 50 Cal and using Shock Wave 250 grain bullets to start? And where you can buy a single or two of the ones you want to try?

I am no up on just what diameter or caliber the bullets that come with the T/C Shockwave 250 when I checked the MMP (a sponsor here) I look at the sabots but was lost as to which ones and they come in packs of 50 so I would like to narrow it down a bit as to not buy so many and then have them left over the ones that are not going to work.

Also is the 3 Petal a good idea or not? And what about the Sub Bases? Sorry for all the questions but trying to learn and not spend a lot of extra money and get the most out of my Knight ML.

Thanks,
Mike / LFM

Mike,

This won't tell you which will work best, but might give you an idea in which direction you need to go so far as a few sabots. Before BH209, I never really paid much attention to the diameters, either they shot good out of my rifles or they didn't. With a little testing, you could probably get just about any bullet to shoot better with the right sabot.

I was hoping to get some more people to add some bullet/sabot diameters to this post to further educate me in other options available. I know there are a lot of posters out there with several sabot/bullet combinations, PLEASE post som pics/sizes when you have time. Thanks!

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... php?t=9324

 

[LFM]

At MMP Website there is no specific Listing for the HPH-12 is it the first one under the HPH Sabots the next one is the HPH-24.

Thanks,
Mike/LFM

 

[sabotloader]

LFM


Click on the image to purchase
Sizes Available Color Code Bullet Possibilities Recommended
Deer Bullet
50 Cal. Rifle
.399 - .400 Bullet Blue 150-260 Grains 180-215 Grains
50 Cal Rifle
.429 - .430 Bullet Green HPH/12 240 - 400 Grains 240 - 300 Grains
3Petal-EZ
50 X 451/452 Black HPH 3Petal-EZ
240 - 350 Grains 250 - 300 Grains
50 Cal. Rifle
.451 - .452 Bullet Black HPH/12 240 - 350 Grains 240 - 300 Grains
50 Cal. Rifle
.451 - .452 Bullet Black HPH/24 240 - 350 Grains 240 - 300 Grains
50 Cal. Rifle
0457 - .458 Bullet Orange 250 - 500 Grains 250 - 300 Grains
[/b]

 

[sabotloader]

big6x6

Correct me here if I am wrong.... The short black MMP sabots are NOT made of the same HPH Polymere - they are the old plastic that we had years ago... and i thought Del indicated to me one time they would not always handle the upper charges of T7 without the sub-base.

I know when i first started shooting the Green sabot in that series for a 44 cal bullet i would get an occasional sabot failure with 110 grains of T7 resulting in a really nice flyer. When i recovered the sabots the cup was melted out and really disorted. Even the sabots that shot well had visible signs of melting due to T7 heat...

 

[big6x6]

big6x6

Correct me here if I am wrong.... The short black MMP sabots are NOT made of the same HPH Polymere - they are the old plastic that we had years ago... and i thought Del indicated to me one time they would not always handle the upper charges of T7 without the sub-base.

I know that CURRENTLY, MMP sabots all use the latest and best polymer formulation. The short black MMP will handle anything you throw at it. That's even the sabot Savage uses for accuracy testing in the 10ML-II.

 

[sabotloader]

big6x6

Good enough - guess I should get some....for the White

 

[LFM]

When I get to the MMP Website, I scroll down the page to the one that shows the HPH - 12 and Click on It and takes me to a Page with a list to choose from Sabots, CapStars, and HPH Sabot Series I click on the HPH Series link ands it takes me to another page, there it has a black one at the top of the list with no information as to it being the HPH-12 then the second Black one is HPH-24, a Blue one .399 to .400, then a Green one .429 to .430, then an orange .457 to .458 but again none of them show the HPOH-12 next to them on that page and then there is the 3 petal at the bottom of the list. I guess being it is the only other Black Colored Sabot it should be the HPH-12.
I guess that is the one I should order then.

Thanks,
Mike / LFM

 

[big6x6]

I click on the HPH Series link ands it takes me to another page, there it has a black one at the top of the list with no information as to it being the HPH-12 then the second Black one is HPH-24, a Blue one .399 to .400, then a Green one .429 to .430, then an orange .457 to .458 but again none of them show the HPOH-12 next to them on that page and then there is the 3 petal at the bottom of the list. I guess being it is the only other Black Colored Sabot it should be the HPH-12.

That is correct. One thing about ordering direct from MMP...you always the the LATEST polymer formulation.