wildcat2 said:
Been looking on you tube of paper patching bullets and whant to get some bullets and mould for my 450 GM.barrel on my henry build. I watched a guy from Idaho that has quite a bit of knowledge of shooting. And he has a 45cal hot rod he calls it and I believe he said his bore was 451,but he is shooting a 11mm ,375gr that is 446. Then he paper patch two wraps and then runs the threw a 446 sizing die. Seems to me that that bullet would fall out of the barrel if you tipped it down or pump it. I think I read once where 45 cal said about using a 442 size bullet. This guy from Idaho ran his patch threw a sizer dry also. I did get a lee press and had them make me up a 450 die for my grease groove bullets. Also what are the advantages if any of a paper patch? Help me out guys, Thanks.
My 11mm bullets are poured with lead that is about 8.5 BHN hard. This alloy weighs right at 408 grains with this bullet.
You asked about sizing to .446
The .446 sizing was actually a guess on my part about 10 years ago. I originally bought it to size bullets to for my .458 renegade. That didn't work well so that was put on hold. I started to shoot the .451 Hawken and wanted to paper patch it. I tried several pistol bullets because the twist was 1-30 I was thinking I needed short bullets. Again the pistol bullets all failed to give consistent accuracy. Yes I got some good groups but it was not consistent. Some of those problems back then could have been the lead hardness I didn't test hardness because I just didn't find a bullet I liked. I have found that not all bullets like to be pushed out soft. Not all barrels like soft or hard bullets. Back then I just felt that the pistol bullets were going the wrong way for me.
I decided that I was going to try a new bullet. So I looked over the Midway catalog and found the RCBS 11mm. I also found a Pedersoldi mould that was also at .446 but it was a minie style. I got them both and tried them.
The bullets would not go down the barrel as wrapped. They were measuring about .452 or so.So all I had to work with was a .446 sizer. I decided I would give it a try to see what it would do.
The Minie was a failure but to be honest I think it was due to the base wad I used not the bullet, and maybe even hardness to some degree.
I had been shooting my Lee 500 S&W for a while at this point. I liked 80 grains of pyrodex P with the wool over powder wad. So I poured up some of the 11mm bullets and shot them. That was the turning point. My first group was good and I decided to play with hardness. I bumped the hardness from soft to about 7 BHN. The groups improved so I decided to bump it again. This bullet shot sub 2" groups regularly and if I was having a good day I was at 1" or less at 100 yards.
The bullets wrapped and sized to .446 are not a tight fit. After sizing they do tend to spring back a bit but in all honesty they can be pushed down with the weight of a solid brass range rod. I have used carried the Hot Rod for a half a dozen years now hunting. I hunt open sage for Antelope and deer
Bu I have also used it as a Mountain Rifle carrying it in brush and trees.
I have never had the bullet fall out. I am very sure that if I were to put it in a ATV gun boot and drive around on rough roads I am sure I would find that the bullet would not stay. If a guy put the muzzle down in a truck and drove around that might make it slip out. But I don't use gun boots on ATV's. When I carry my rifle on my ATV it looks like this. I have my back pack on the front rack and I have the gun in a sleeve.
I have to carry my rifle like everyone else does. Sometimes the gun is muzzle down, but most of the time I carry it level, or on the sling muzzle up. I do check the bullet once and a while to make sure it is still where it is supposed to be. I have never found it to be off the powder, not once in a half dozen years.
No way it can come out by tipping it up or pumping it. If you were to drop it a couple times muzzle down on a log or rock it would probably move. Normal carry and use is not an issue.
I do size dry. If you use a lube it will degrade the paper and make it less tough. On loose fitting bullets it might not be as big of an issue I don't know. But the lube will degrade the paper. How much it degrades the paper is unknown. It depends on time and the tightness of the bullet in the barrel.
You ask what are the advantages of paper patch?
#1 is consistency. The paper protects the bullet from the barrel. And it protects the barrel from the lead. Lead build up is a slow process. If a guy shoots a lot there is a tiny amount of lead deposited with every shot. Even with the best lubes in the world a small amount is left behind. Maybe it takes forever for the accuracy to decline, maybe it takes a few shots due to a lube problem. The fact is with naked bullets lead and lube fouling is an ever changing dynamic in the barrel. If you have something that is changing potentially with every shot how do you account for that?
Guys like me that have shot a lot of naked factory bullets know that the bullets we used to shoot were okay at best. Quality control is/was non existent even today.
Guys measured accuracy with pie plates and 5 gallon buckets. If they could hit those they were good to go hunting. Distances were kept under 100 yards at the range but often the hunter shot at game much farther out due to not having range finders and or guessing wrong yardage. Some guys got lucky others didn't
A paper patched bullet is the same every time. If the guy that is making the bullets matches lead, weighs the bullets and culls the imperfect ones he is off to a good start with accuracy. If those bullets are wrapped and an over powder wad is used to protect the base then that bullet has the best chance of being accurate.
I am not saying that a GG bullet can't be accurate. I am just saying that if a guy goes that route there are some things to remember #1 being lead control in the barrel. #2 just because you have lube and your bullets shoot well it doesn't mean that the lube is correctly working. #3 lubed bullets will come off the powder charge too. When the naked bullet is pushed down the barrel the tight bullet will go down hard, but. There are grooves being cut into the bullet by the rifling's. Once those grooves are cut they are cut. The GG bullets are just as inclined to move as a slip fit paper patch is. A shooter/hunter must remember to check it once and a while. Not only is it for safety but to insure that your shot will go where it is supposed to.
Next Month will be my 10th year paper patching the lee 500 S&W bullet. It started because Hornady quit making the 410 grain 50 cal. I bought about 30 boxes to last a lifetime. I looked at that stack of boxes and thought that is all I can shoot from here on out. Well with a son about to start hunting with a black powder rifle I knew I had to make changes. I tried a hand full of GG bullets and then found the Lee 500 S&W. I knew it would never work naked as a muzzleloader bullet. But I did read about a rifle called the Whitworth. I read about paper patching and in November 2007 I decided to start my testing. No one was paper patching this bullet. For the most part no one I knew of was paper patching a hunting load for a muzzleloader. I was on my own. It was 2 years later after extensive testing with lead and load development that I decided to take the lee 500 S&W bullet on a hunt.
The next year I got this buck,
Soon other guys, and friends were shooting the Lee 500 S&W bullet and killing game.
Like I said before the 11mm has been my go to rifle for the last half dozen years. I have killed several deer and antelope with it this buck was the first one I killed with the 11mm bullet.
It may seem like the numbers don't make sense but I can assure you that it works well if a guy does the work it takes to make it shoot.
Lastly this is a video I made to see how many shots I could accurately shoot without cleaning with the Hawken and 11mm bullet.
https://youtu.be/su-1Ql-Nhtk