Percussion vs Flintlock

[Muley Hunter]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Sure, I care about some things, but what others think of me isn't one of them.

Not counting friends of course.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Sure, I care about some things, but what others think of me isn't one of them.

Not counting friends of course.

Pete at this point in our lives we are all or close to your comment.

I use to be active in the AMM, NAF, NRA, PRA and the NMRA along with several others (officer positions). Worked 10 hours a day 5-6 days a week then off with meeting or hunting. I would get 5-6 hours sleep then up and running. Maybe that's why I have been married three times in 50 some years ....    :shock:   boys will be boys :Questuon:  :thumbs up:

 

[Muley Hunter]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

One marriage was enough for me. It lasted 7 years. It wasn't bad, but when it ended I decided it would be better if I stayed single. 

I love women, but not full time.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

One marriage was enough for me. It lasted 7 years. It wasn't bad, but when it ended I decided it would be better if I stayed single. 

I love women, but not full time.

I should have followed your advise, these ladies and state laws work together and the guy pays big time.  Must be a slow learner ...  :Beating Muley: $$$

 

[Two Feathers]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

can u use tire weights ? i have never cast lead before just a thought .

BigCountry
 Sorry to hop in here so late in the conversation. I'm just throwin' in my $.02.  Wheel weights (mostly these days) are cast from Lead (Pb) and Antimony (Sb). Antimony, Atomic number 51, was, a long time ago, called Lead, but it wasn't. One of the many uses for Antimony, is mixing it with lead and using it in Antimony Plates for lead acid car batteries. It's an ore that resembles lead and is used as a "filler" in lead to stretch it, kinda' like the old Gold miners did, when they added sand to their Nugget bags to increase it's weight. Antimony is much harder and less Melt friendly than lead, plus it doesn't congeal well when it cools, leaving air pockets in whatever it's smelted with. A lot of manufacturers cast it along with Pot Metal to give their products a "heavier" feel (We all know that heavier is better) 
 I was very fortunate to have picked up about 60 pounds of 100% pure lead in 5 pound ingots from my last job. We used them to adjust the corner tracking weight on my grandson's go-kart back when he raced back in 2002. Now they just lay in my barn? At least I think they're still there? I haven't looked in 15 years, so who knows? I use one on my work bench as a weight to hold my leather down when I tool. Hope I didn't step on any toes with my comments?
As for my absence from the forum. I just got a new computer and decided to come back to it. Truth is...I just missed you guys.   There's no other forums on the Internet for a weirdo like me.
God bless:
Stoney

 

[Buck Conner1]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

There's no other forums on the Internet for a weirdo like me.
God bless:
Stoney

Amen ... :slaps:   :hats off:   :Questuon:

 

[Randy Johnson]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Getting back to the subject.
I have both percussion and flintlock but vastly prefer the flintlocks. Currently there are seven. Three rifles, three smoothbores, and one pistol.
There is some validity to the claim that cap guns are more weather proof. But, that by no means implies that caplocks are as weather proof as a brass shucker or that flintlocks only work in good weather. There are a number of things, bees wax on the pan, lock cover, etc. that can make flinters more weather resistant.
Something often heard about flintlocks is that there is a learning curve. If the rifle (or smooth bore) has a GOOD lock this statement is largely hogwash. With a good lock and proper loading procedures there is no noticeable difference between shooting a flintlock and shooting a percussion. The key word here is good. A rifle from TVM is going to have lock that cost more than one fifth the cost of an entire Traditions Mountain Rifle. It is also going to have a lot nicer stock, better barrel, and better trigger. There is a reason beyond being hand built that custom rifles cost so much.
If you don't want to spend a lot of money then it is probably better to stick with percussion. However, if you want to invest in a rifle that will something to truly be proud of, get a good flintlock from a good builder. You won't be sorry.
Oh, and to the guy who made the remark about shooting an outdated rifle, or something to that effect anyway, I thought that was the whole idea of shooting traditional sidelock muzzleloaders.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

[align=justify]Getting back to the subject.

Something often heard about flintlocks is that there is a learning curve. If the rifle (or smooth bore) has a GOOD lock this statement is largely hogwash. 

How long have you been shooting black powder or any cartridge firearm Mr. Johnson to make such a remark?

Having taught and shot in State and National Competition since 1955 (tried out for 1987 Muzzleloading Olympics). There is a learning curve no matter what the firearm is. There is more flinching with a new flintlock shooter over a percussion shooter - which can be a problem that will require serious work to correct that we all know.

A rifle from TVM is going to have lock that cost more than one fifth the cost of an entire Traditions Mountain Rifle. It is also going to have a lot nicer stock, better barrel, and better trigger. There is a reason beyond being hand built that custom rifles cost so much.

1). TVM is a semi custom builder. I've know and handled these rifles years before Jack Gardner's son-in-law brought the firm. Biggest problem in the past is someone hogged out the lock and barrel channel areas which had to be glass bedded to correct problem before selling.
2). They used whatever lock they could find was another complaint.
3). The wood would run from soft to hard at times which Freddie Harris said was what the supplier sent him before he shaped them for TVM.
4). Barrels and triggers weren't anything special.
*   Jack wasn't paying attention to what was being done under his business name.

Tennessee Valley Manufacturing was started by Jack Garner in 1975.  He worked for Dixie Gun Works for years. Jack had built a reputation the old-fashioned way, through hard work and attention to quality.  He finally wore down over the years and passed on the business.

If you don't want to spend a lot of money then it is probably better to stick with percussion. However, if you want to invest in a rifle that will something to truly be proud of, get a good flintlock from a good builder.

This is not correct, if you look at the cost of good locks there's a small margin in costs. As far as being proud of your purchase, everyone see's each item differently. I have bought and sold both ignition system weapons of excellent quality - percussion or flintlocks seem to rival each other in pricing.

 
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[Randy Johnson]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Well, with dates involved you have to be a lot older than me so you have an advantage there. I'm only in my 49th year of shooting muzzleloaders, forty-third year of flintlocks, with eight or so years before that shooting modern guns. If you are flinching with ANY gun, be it a flintlock or a M-16, you are doing it wrong. Properly done, pressure is applied to the trigger only when the sights are on target. The discharge should be a complete surprise, and, if done properly, the projectile is on its way before there is an opportunity to flinch. Once you train yourself to do this it will not make any difference what you are shooting. I got that advice from the late Max Vickery whose creditials exceeded even yours. 
I have no doubt that a high speed camera and lots of fancy testing toys will show some microsecond difference between the ignition time of a good flintlock and a good percussion lock. But the guy standing behind the butt plate will never notice it. With the exception of one of the old Jap made smoothbore pistols that sold for twenty bucks back in the sixties and early seventies I have never owned a mass produced flintlock. I have heard that some of them have kind of iffy locks. An unreliable lock would certainly leave a shooter or observer with the impression that flintlocks are generally unreliable and that percussion guns are a better choice. But a rifle with a good flintlock can regularly beat any percussion gun out there. At one time I could do it. I know several who still can.
Jack Garner, as you have noted, is no longer connected with TVM. I have owned two rifles that the current owner built. One, a .50, was sold when I bought my Ken Moors rifle. The other, a .36, will probably be leaving soon to offset the cost of the .32 Kibler rifle. But neither one was a disappointment. The locks were both well made and functioning Silers, good triggers, and good to excellent wood. And they both could fetch what they were sent after.
Finally, any lock with a spring strong enough to make the cap fire will make a percussion lock fire. Think CVA Bobcat. The same is not true for flintlocks. If they were still making them, you could buy two Bobcats for what a good flintlock LOCK will cost. With change left over. The OP was wavering between a Traditions product and a TVM product. If buying a percussion, the reliability of either company would be equal. If buying a flintlock TVM almost certainly has the edge.

 

[BigCountry1]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

I really like TVM rifles . i dont live but a couple hours from where they are built. I am panning a trip there in October to look at there rifle choices and styles. So far i like the late lancaster and and southern rifles.  I as of now dont have a preference btw percussion and flintlock. i bought a Traditions mountain rifle few months back. It is a solid rifle and is extremely accurate. For the money you cant beat what your getting. But i tend to like custom built rifles (THAT WAY I CAN GET IT THE WAY I WANT IT) Which ever TVM  rifle i choose it will not have over a 36inbarrel.

 

[Smokin' Joe]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Hey BigCountry, let us know about your experience after your tour ( maybe with a pic or two also) and what rifle you decide on.

You mentioned your barrel length decision.  I just finished a 38" Isaac Haines and a 46" Fowler.  It's kind of funny but they both pull up to your shoulder just fine.  You really don't notice a lot of difference.

Good luck on your choice!

 

[BigCountry1]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

I will definitely keep everyone posted. I have had several phone conversations with them. They seem like nice people. Only reason i want a shorter barrrel is bc of being able to maneuver it well out of a treestand. I will be getting my barrel in a 1-48 twist which ive been told already it will have to be custom ordered. I have handled a .45cal late lancaster rifle that was a flintlock. could have bought it for less than half of what it cost new.  rifle was under a year old. But im not crazy about a .45 for hunting.  The guy used it for a reenactment rifle. it hand everything you could imagine on it. But i elected to pass.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Randy
I agree with you about quality of the locks whether flintlock or percussion, its all about workmenship if an assembled kit or a factory lock. Some of the worst locks sold early on in the reproduction field were the T/C flintlocks (bad frizzens).
______________________________________________________
Side Note:
You may have heard of Ron Long (Long Locks), a good friend, I owned a mountainman/muzzleloading shop in Northern Colorado. We (Ron and two others) started the Colorado State Muzzleloading Association Squirrel Shoot that got the whole country interested in this event and copied by many. Now in its 44 year of being held in the same location. This is for .40 caliber or smaller rifles with many suppliers providing prices for the event, usual value of prizes from sources were in the $5-6K range. Long was one of top shooters in the world having brought home Gold in matches entered in several of the Muzzleloading Olympics events here and in other countries.
______________________________________________________
I gave a T/C flintlock to Ron, he liked the coil spring design, did an action job on it and reharden the frizzen which improved this lock 90%. Now fast with excellent sparks. This lock was put on one of the prize rifles given to the shoot mentioned.

The prizes for this shoot was done in blanket shoot style, several looked at the T/C and moved on to another prize because of the rifles reputation. Once taken from the remaining prizes we loaded the rifle and the winner shot the rifle getting everyone's attention as how fast the ignition was.

Like Randy said its all about good ignition, after this test we would send lock frizzens to either Ron or GRRW in Roosevelt UT to have them reharden before selling them. Problem solved, wrote to several of the larger less expensive makers about the issues of their frizzens (went no where).
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Jack Gardner is a friend that worked with us when still in business (made a trade one time of Long locks, triggers, breech plugs, Douglas barrels and pre carved stocks - enough for 14 -15 complete rifles. Got back 7 - 8 rifles in the white, these guns Jack had someone assemble and did a sloppy job. Jack in those days was hard to contact and not paying attention to what was going on just before getting out of the business.

I took Jack and Freddie Harris (his stock maker) along with the Director of the DOW from MS on their first buffalo hunt - that's another story. Jack has always been a true Southern Gentleman, God Bless him.
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I have never shot any of the new TVM rifles, but have talked to a few that own them and they where pleased. They have a nice website that those that haven't visited need to at: http://www.tennesseevalleymuzzleloading.com/  They have build a totally clean and organized operation when compared to the old firm. That's wonderful, it sure needed help at the end.
______________________________________________________
BigCountry
Looking at some of the firms that were around when compared to those who have survived over the years they have improved a great deal making better products for their price ranges.

I have had 42 inch barrels, they look nice but make hunting harder over one shorter, I'm like you, my longest rifle is now 36 inches long. Have made a couple of custom black powder builders get upset when we cut their fine work down to a hunting length, sorry guys.

My family have been collectors for more than a hundred years of antique weapons (edged or shootable) along with household goods to whatever. The last grouping was (have had several large collections of guns) a large firearms collections numbering 400 long guns and handguns, most in NRA Excellent Condition. At my age and kids that have no interest (freekin' tree huggers) the wife and myself decided to sell them rather than have our kids give them away for nothing. It took us 2 - 3 years of gun shows to move out the last group of firearms I wasn't interested in. Keeping only flintlocks guns of NRA Excellent to Fine Conditions of 85% or better. They are all shootable flinters (we use light charges do to age of weapon and old metals used - and some are of the 42 inch or longer lengths).
______________________________________________________

Randy and BigCountry thank you for taking part with this conversations. :hats off:

Buck

 

[Randy Johnson]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

I have never been a gun builder so I am only familiar with Long's Locks through ads and articles in the Buckskin Report. If I remember correctly he was machining all the internal parts as opposed to having them cast and polished. Roller did the same, and I have a cap gun I keep for sentimental purposes that has Roller lock and triggers along with a Large barrel.
My first flintlock rifle was one of Freddie Harrison's early ones. Bought it at DGW when I stopped by on my way home from Barksdale AFB in Louisiana. It had the best finish I have ever seen on a piece of wood. Style wise it didn't hold a candle to Freddie's later guns.
Home by the way is Connersville, Indiana.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Freddie and Jack were a pair, met them at Ft. DeChartre in IL years ago, we were eating fried buffalo and fed them supper. They loved the taste of the meat, told them about hunting buffalo and they were hooked for a hunt.

We set a date to meet in Wallace KS, first thing Freddie wanted to know was "is there a State (liquor) Store in that town". Told them there are two motels, its a small wide spot in the road, don't know. Jack said he thought Freddie called a head and picked the one that had a liquor store next door. Man those southern boys do like Jack Daniels, sure made the owners of that store's day when they went in there.

Fun guys when we hunted together - another story. Freddie had several very nice rifles he had built, Jack was using one of them both in .62 caliber one percussion the other a flinter.

 

[strong eagle]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

im a firm believer that two rifles that are the same except one is a flinter and the other is a precission, the flinter will have a little more consistant accuracy. now to make the precussion the same as the flinter in consistant accuracy all one has to do do is drill a tiny vent hole into the powder chamber just infront of the drum. then they will be both consistant in accuracy.

 

[Hanshi]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Percussions are simple and relatively foolproof.  And, yes, I do know there are many fools out there that are a new strain of fool.  But if you simply learn and listen a little it works out just fine.  Flints, on the other hand, require more attention to get the same reliability as a capgun.  I prefer flinters but do have both type and like them all.

 

[BigAl52]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

Im not accurrate with either one but I sure have fun trying. I have no preference in one or the other. I own both and Im like Hanshi I like both.

 

[RonRC]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

My first shot from a flintlock went into the ground in front of the target backstop. It seems that I held my follow through just for the flash in the pan, but dropped the muzzle before the ball left the barrel.
It took about 2 visits to the range to stop reacting to the flash in the pan.
Now, I have more fun shooting flintlock than I do percussion. Oh, I still enjoy percussion firearms, but the flintlock gives me a stronger connection to a more distant past. 
Ron

 

[strong eagle]

Re: Percussion vs Flintlock

one way to improve accuracy with a round ball rifle is use medium weight pure linen tight weave cloth for the patching material. dont precut the patches. lube the cloth and set the ball almost a 1/4 inch deep into the muzzle then cut off the patching material at the muzzle with a straight razor or really sharp patching knife. use reasonable powder loads and dont try to make the rifle a magnum. you also will find when you recover these pure linen patches that they are not round in shape, they are square. square patches shoot much more accurate than round ones. boy did i just open up a discussion. it is true, if you must use precut patches, make them out of the linen i suggested and make them square. same diam. as the round ones but square. your accuracy will greatly improve. using this method i took a white tail doe at 170 yards with a 45 cal round ball gun and i hit her in the very spot i was aiming for. the load was 100 grains of 2f and a 1/60 twist barrel. round ball guns either flint or precussion can be very very accurate at even longer ranges. lewis and clark would take antelope to 300 yards with theirs. to show from history how accurate the flinter round ball guns can be. the first shot fired in the battle of new orleans against the brits was 200 and 11 yards a american named morgan did it off hand and put the ball through the head of a british officer. im sure he used pure linen patches and cut it off at the muzzle as they all did in those days. around 3500 brits died that day. and only 11 americans. none of the brits got closer than 98 yards to the americans. most of those died of head shots. if the americans could do accuracy that good in those days then we can also.  if we load and shoot like they did. also use round balls only 5 thousands under bore size, not 10 thousands under. hope this helps some to better accuracy.