Rem 700ml conversion

[bstorric]

Well when I eventually get my MR-x back from CVA, Ill do a chrono comparison using DI vs 209s. I am curious what the difference will be myself. But for now I have to wait for my gun to get back and also to find primers. Its a race to see which happens first

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Good to know. I just bought the Hankin DI plug and modules for my Accura

I would LOVE to see a test of chrono readings with the DI vs 209 in that CVA using BH209. In a break action it is a bit more practical IMO.

I may be borrowing a chrony soon. I have the DI for my Accura also. maybe i can get some comparison data this winter, between the DI and 209s.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

One of the most important questions in this discussion should be... "Is the ignition reliable"?

If the breech plug and modules containing a LR Magnum primer reliably ignite the powder charge every time, then you do not need the extra firepower of a 209 primer.

I once had a customer bring me a breech plug and primer modules similar to that used in the Remington 700 UML, and he wanted me to use these components to build him a smokeless muzzleloader.
I could get the system to ignite the smokeless powder some of the time, but not all the time.
Nobody wants a "hang-fire" or a "burp" when that buck of a lifetime is standing 100 yards in front of you.
This happened before I got the LRMP type breech plugs and modules made by Hankins, and Arrowhead.

The LRMP modules act like a funnel to direct the heat and pressure from the module into the breech plug.

The Remington 700 UML system basically has the funnel upside down. Turn a funnel upside down and try to pour something into a container through the narrow end and see what happens. How much of the heat and pressure is wasted in the UML design, if the headspace is not perfect?
Yes, I know it works with Black Powder, and the substitutes, but it is not the ideal system for smokeless.

.

 

[Hoobilly]

With the LRMP from my understanding, you don’t need to clean the plug like I need to do often from using the 209’s. That would be a huge benefit to me.
I have been waiting to buy the adjustable arrowhead 209 plug for my Bergara conversion. A buddy sent me a link on the plug from Hankins that’s a fix for the problematic 209 savage plug. I’m probably going that route after muzzleloader season here in Indiana and Kentucky

 

[jims]

Hoobilly: Could you post that link for the Savage 209 plug?

 

[Hoobilly]

Hoobilly: Could you post that link for the Savage 209 plug?

https://hanksprecisiongunparts.com/p/savage-repair-plug-for-his-ignition-module

 

[GM54-120]

With the LRMP from my understanding, you don’t need to clean the plug like I need to do often from using the 209’s. That would be a huge benefit to me.

The is one of the main benefits even when using them in non CF actions. They are also easier on the flash hole. With that said though my NULA 209 plug builds very little carbon. It also has no vent liner. It has about 1000 shots on the plug and its still fine. The secret is less channel volume and basically a 100% sealed supported primer. This works with 50cal loads but i could see it being problematic in a 45 with large loads of slower powder.

I get a chuckle out of vendors and the rear sealing plug topics because Melvin at NULA was doing it many years before in the mid/late 2000s. It took all the others another 10yrs to figure it out and they never did get a 209 to seal up as good.

 

[Patrick McChristy]

https://hanksprecisiongunparts.com/p/savage-repair-plug-for-his-ignition-module

How often do you clean it? What kinda loads are you shooting?

I am still on the fence about what to build on the old style 700 ml actions. I have a pacnor 1-22 twist barrel i plan on building - just haven't made up my mind which bolt nose i need to get

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I am still on the fence about what to build on the old style 700 ml actions. I have a pacnor 1-22 twist barrel i plan on building - just haven't made up my mind which bolt nose i need to get

Remington 700ML LRMP Breech Plug System – Arrowhead Rifles

.

 

[Patrick McChristy]

That was the way I was leaning - this thread just stirred up some 209 thinking

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

That was the way I was leaning - this thread just stirred up some 209 thinking

The 209 has more primer material than a LR Magnum primer. However, the 209 was originally designed for shotshells which have a much lower pressure than a Magnum rifle cartridge. The pressures being used in high velocity 45 caliber muzzleloaders are about the same as those used by Magnum rifle cartridges. In many ways the LRMP brass modules act like the head of a Magnum cartridge in order to contain the higher pressures involved, and get the proper heat and pressure to the propellant.

 

[GM54-120]

In many ways the LRMP brass modules act like the head of a Magnum cartridge in order to contain the higher pressures involved, and get the proper heat and pressure to the propellant.

Yep, but only when used with a CF action. The flash channel is longer/larger volume in the plug made for Rem700ML conversions. Its not the same plug as the CF LRMP plug. The larger volume creates more time for the bullet to exit and peak pressure to drop. The module in the ML/MLII conversions should never see the same peak pressure as a CF conversion.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

The flash channel is longer/larger volume in the plug made for Rem700ML conversions. Its not the same plug as the CF LRMP plug. The larger volume creates more time for the bullet to exit and peak pressure to drop.

I have used both breech plugs.

Are you saying the Rem700ML breechplug produces a lower peak pressure with 76 grains of IMR4198 and a 275 grain Parker BE bullet, as compared to the Rem700 CF action?

How much difference in pressure would be produced?

.

 

[GM54-120]

I am saying they are not the same plug. Call and ask Luke why he makes them differently. Ask Bestill too because he uses them also. There is a reason they are not the same and i thought i was very clear about why.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

I am saying they are not the same plug. Call and ask Luke why he makes them differently. Ask Bestill too because he uses them also. There is a reason they are not the same and i thought i was very clear about why.

Here is the patent for Luke's breech plug awarded in 2019.

Self-cleaning is one of the primary advantages listed in the patent.

Patent Images (uspto.gov)

.

 

[GM54-120]

So did you call Luke?

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

So did you call Luke?

Since I have designed and built breech plugs for both a Savage center-fire action, and Rem 700ML actions, I do have some basic knowledge myself without having to call Luke. I do know he has said in the past the flame path is shorter on his center-fire plug, and nobody can dispute that fact.

However, when sufficient heat and pressure gets past the carbide bushing into the powder, the burning propellant is going to be the major pressure factor in my humble opinion.

Smokeless Muzzle Loader: 275 grain bullet @ 3,000 fps - YouTube


I do hope that I am allowed to have a difference of opinion with a moderator of this forum.

.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

A customer asked me to mount his scope to the Remington 700ML HV (High Velocity) rifle he is picking up tomorrow, so that gave me a chance to shoot it through my new chronograph.

The load I used was 76 grains by weight of IMR4198 with the 275 grain Parker BE sized for the 45 caliber Brux 1-20 twist 1.200" shank barrel. (LV)

I purchased the bolt head, and firing pin/spring, and LRMP modules, and breech plug from Arrowhead Rifles. Luke makes great parts.
I tack-weld the bolt head to the bolt with a TIG welder to make sure it cannot come off.

This rifle will also shoot 200 grain 40 caliber bullets in the Harvester High Pressure sabots at over 2700 fps, with 60 grains of IMR4198.
That is faster than most 30-06 rifles will shoot a 200 grain bullet.

 

[Shorty]

Wow, that's very cool. Thank you for the post, makes my mouth water...

 

[brownisdown]

I had my knight mountaneer converted to smokeless powder and I use 60 grains of h4198,200 grain hornaday sst bullet,and fed209a primer.3 shots under a quarter at 100 yds.Last year I shot a buck at 246yds facing at me and shot him where the chest meets the shoulders and he dropped in his spot.