Sabots, sidelocks and other sources of happiness

[Confederate rifleman]

Sabots are very nice in that they offer almost unlimited bore life. Used exclusively in 2 rifles, one blued the other stainless, I could measure no wear after 1600 rounds through each. Not to mention at least 3x that many patches for cleaning. To some the combo is... not appripo? But it does work, and works WELL. If reducing bore wear is important to you, do not ignore the sabot.
If you match the bullet to the rifling, accuracy can be startling!
Knowing how to shoot a particular rifle is critical too.
My new .50 Renegade barrel is completely different than the original, even though both are "M" stamps. The original shot best when the powder was just kissed. The new one scatters like a shotgun when lightly rammed. Lean on the rammer a bit harder and things are nice. LEAN on it and oh MY! I could hit a deer in the eye 3x3 at 50 yards. Not bad for a 1-48 flintlock shooting 45 caliber 230 grain XTP's in Harvester crush ribs and 70 grains of 3f Swiss.
The 250 XTP needs a 1-49, according to Greenhill, and is a superb game bullet. Side locks are becoming more interesting to me. The ability to used the same loads I do in my Firehawk is excellent. Their ability to use more primitive (?) loads adds to their versatility.

 

[SupplySgt65]

My hand me down TC Hawkin 1:48 with a neglected, pitted barrel loves sabots, especially the TC Shockwave 250gr, one ragged hole at 50 yds with factory sights using a Caldwell lead sled. She's not to picky about seating pressure and the sabots slide down the barrel like they've been coated with Teflon.

I don't worry about how others feel or think about what I use in my side lock. Opinions are just that, opinions, everybody's got one. I do what works best for me.

 

[deermanok]

I think that's the beauty of the old style rifles. Sometimes it takes years to find what makes them work best.

 

[Jackalope]

I have a Cabelas Sporterized hawken that loves the 250 XTP in a green crush rib sabot. I was wanting it for shooting round ball but the XTP's just shot to good.

Sounds like you found what it likes.

 

[Renegadehunter]

With the decline in BP shooters I would never knock someone for wanting to shoot sabots in a sidelock, or whatever else they want to try. I do realize there are some pretty stout HC/PC folks out there that can get pretty worked up about such a thing. I will admit to being a bit of a real BP snob, I just won't ever try a sub unless I have zero choice, but certainly won't knock anyone that does use them.
Do what makes you happy...just keep burning the BP.
Idaho doesn't allow sabots for hunting so I've just never bothered to mess with them. I also for some reason just really get a great deal of entertainment and enjoyment out of shooting PRB's. Probably because I'm weird and would get bored very quickly if I could simply load something and stack them on the target.
With PRB I can effect groups and ease...or lack thereof...of loading greatly by simply changing patch material, thickness, lube, or amount of lube. I've found several combo's that are plenty fine for hunting accuracy, and some that look really good on a target too, but continue to experiment looking for the "ultimate" combo. The ultimate for me would be a combo that started into the bore easy, didn't require swabbing between shots, and of course put them all into one ragged hole. If I actually found that, heck I'd probably put that gun in the safe and go buy another one and start all over lol.
We are all wired just a little different.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

With the decline in BP shooters I would never knock someone for wanting to shoot sabots in a sidelock, or whatever else they want to try. I do realize there are some pretty stout HC/PC folks out there that can get pretty worked up about such a thing. I will admit to being a bit of a real BP snob, I just won't ever try a sub unless I have zero choice, but certainly won't knock anyone that does use them.
Do what makes you happy...just keep burning the BP.
Idaho doesn't allow sabots for hunting so I've just never bothered to mess with them. I also for some reason just really get a great deal of entertainment and enjoyment out of shooting PRB's. Probably because I'm weird and would get bored very quickly if I could simply load something and stack them on the target.
With PRB I can effect groups and ease...or lack thereof...of loading greatly by simply changing patch material, thickness, lube, or amount of lube. I've found several combo's that are plenty fine for hunting accuracy, and some that look really good on a target too, but continue to experiment looking for the "ultimate" combo. The ultimate for me would be a combo that started into the bore easy, didn't require swabbing between shots, and of course put them all into one ragged hole. If I actually found that, heck I'd probably put that gun in the safe and go buy another one and start all over lol.
We are all wired just a little different.

I just shot my LRH Renegade for the first time yesterday. I tried sabots first, on 80grn T7 3fg. 3" group at 50yd. Then switched to Goulds on the same load, 2.5" group. Dropped that load down to 50grn T7 and tried the sabots again (250sst) better @ 2", but the Gould REALLy liked 50 and 60 grains of T7. I had a WMC but this is my first real adventure into sidelocks. I am loving it so far. Although i find that it tires me out faster than shooting my inlines. I think its due to using a peep instead of a scope, seems like more ofa strain on my brain and muscles. I got about 30 shots before I had to call it a day.

 

[Matthew323]

Thirty shots for a days work at the bench isn't bad!!

I find benchrest shooting to be boring, once an accurate load has been achieved.

Of course, all that I've ever owned, and shot, thus far in life have been patched ball flintlock long rifles. Once an accurate load is found, little time is needed at the bench. Most shooting, thereafter would be woods walk style shooting, informal mostly.

That's all going to change as sometime late this summer, early this fall, I should have a R-H, percussion, Renegade Hunter Scout Rifle ready to shoot.

It will have a 21" long, .50 caliber, 1-28" twist, GM, LRH barrel.

On top of the barrel will be a custom, steel, Picatinny/Weaver, low-profile, left-offset, scope base. The base will be able to mount either a Scout scope, or a rear-mounted conventional rifle scope.

I will probably mount a Leupold VX-R, 1.5-5×33mm Scout scope with a FireDot Duplex reticle using Warne or Talley Q-D lever 30mm rings.

And then the work begins!!

 

[edmehlig]

I just shot my LRH Renegade for the first time yesterday. I tried sabots first, on 80grn T7 3fg. 3" group at 50yd. Then switched to Goulds on the same load, 2.5" group. Dropped that load down to 50grn T7 and tried the sabots again (250sst) better @ 2", but the Gould REALLy liked 50 and 60 grains of T7. I had a WMC but this is my first real adventure into sidelocks. I am loving it so far. Although i find that it tires me out faster than shooting my inlines. I think its due to using a peep instead of a scope, seems like more ofa strain on my brain and muscles. I got about 30 shots before I had to call it a day.

Here's a picture of my grandsons target with the load of 60gr of 777-3F at 100 yds. He was shooting his scoped 451 White M97. Naturally, he was shooting from a bench and using a rest.

 

[Matthew323]

That's some good shootin'!! No wonder he's smiling like a Cheshire Cat!! He should be proud of himself.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Thirty shots for a days work at the bench isn't bad!!

I find benchrest shooting to be boring, once an accurate load has been achieved.

Of course, all that I've ever owned, and shot, thus far in life have been patched ball flintlock long rifles. Once an accurate load is found, little time is needed at the bench. Most shooting, thereafter would be woods walk style shooting, informal mostly.

The bench shooting is also about getting familiar with a new gun, learning how to hold it, how the trigger feels and practicing breathing control. I found one good load, but i believe there will be other good loads. Maybe even better. I hope something hotter. Plus i want to try different powders. And i hope to have luck with a sabot or copper conical. If nothing else its a blast to shoot this gun.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

250ssts, 25 yds, 80gr T7 3f
250sst, 50gr T7, 50 yds
345grn Gould, 50gr T7 3f, 50 yd, sabot base for a OP wad, Nasa lube.
I swabbed between every shot with 50/50 alc/windx then a dry patch because I could feel a little crud forming. Had 1 no fire cuz i got distracted and forgot to put in any powder. I had my rod marked for empty and for loaded. Also had brought my borescope to the range for backup checks. No one at the range but me and a guy with an airgun. I asked him a couple Qs about his gun when i forgot the powder..

 

[Ninering62]

With the decline in BP shooters I would never knock someone for wanting to shoot sabots in a sidelock, or whatever else they want to try. I do realize there are some pretty stout HC/PC folks out there that can get pretty worked up about such a thing. I will admit to being a bit of a real BP snob, I just won't ever try a sub unless I have zero choice, but certainly won't knock anyone that does use them.
Do what makes you happy...just keep burning the BP.
Idaho doesn't allow sabots for hunting so I've just never bothered to mess with them. I also for some reason just really get a great deal of entertainment and enjoyment out of shooting PRB's. Probably because I'm weird and would get bored very quickly if I could simply load something and stack them on the target.
With PRB I can effect groups and ease...or lack thereof...of loading greatly by simply changing patch material, thickness, lube, or amount of lube. I've found several combo's that are plenty fine for hunting accuracy, and some that look really good on a target too, but continue to experiment looking for the "ultimate" combo. The ultimate for me would be a combo that started into the bore easy, didn't require swabbing between shots, and of course put them all into one ragged hole. If I actually found that, heck I'd probably put that gun in the safe and go buy another one and start all over lol.
We are all wired just a little different.

Right on brotha. Great post. Well said. Kind regards

 

[Ninering62]

Where my mind goes with that is - it doesn't matter what a gun owner " wants " " likes" " doesn't like " is never the point or fact that should be considered is what your particular guns barrel is designed to shoot with it's twist rate, length, thickness or taper. Outside of those very pertinent relavent parameters it's experiment, live, learn & enjoy the journey. Just IMHO ofcourse. Kind regards

 

[Matthew323]

Yeah!!

Every barrel is different, with its own likes and dislikes as to what will shoot well.

I found that to be true for patched ball barrels, and everything I am reading here at MM says fast twist bullet barrels are just as picky.

My new to me GM, .50 caliber, 1-28" twist, LRH barrel will take some experimenting, I am sure, to come up with a load that is relatively mild in recoil, yet accurate out to at least 150 yards (Scout scope).

 

[Ninering62]

Yeah!!

Every barrel is different, with its own likes and dislikes as to what will shoot well.

I found that to be true for patched ball barrels, and everything I am reading here at MM says fast twist bullet barrels are just as picky.

My new to me GM, .50 caliber, 1-28" twist, LRH barrel will take some experimenting, I am sure, to come up with a load that is relatively mild in recoil, yet accurate out to at least 150 yards (Scout scope).

All proven to be true for sure. I've seen & heard many times about ppl that get into ML's & BP guns that if they don't have that innate love for all that is entailed in learning the ins & outs of it & to be able to apply that to improved results tend to not stay with it very long & the gun/guns end up in the closet for yrs or sold off for something a lil more " user friendly ".
I had been shooting all kinds of guns all my life & until I started learning about long range shooting & about barrels bullets twists & BC's etc and I bought a Browning A Bolt ll in 7mm Rem Mag with the BOSS system ( muzzle brake thats adjustable to harmonically tune your barrel to be able to shoot all the bullet weights & types in that caliber thru that gun instead of having to find that one particular bullet that the barrel really likes & stacks shot after shot in one ragged hole. My youngest brother got a Win 30-06 with the BOSS . He has many guns & hunts wild boar & deer, red stag & more regularly & lives in Europe. He still mostly chooses to use that gun & changes his bullet to suit what he intends to shoot & adj the BOSS to it. To a simple old school country boy like me, thats just some amazing stuff right there. I'm just grateful that i'm able to learn, understand & apply it somewhat to benefit from things like that. Thats what these rubber " barrel dampeners " are. a cheap simplex version of a BOSS brake. Kind regards

 

[WV Hunter]

Sabots are very nice in that they offer almost unlimited bore life. Used exclusively in 2 rifles, one blued the other stainless, I could measure no wear after 1600 rounds through each. Not to mention at least 3x that many patches for cleaning. To some the combo is... not appripo? But it does work, and works WELL. If reducing bore wear is important to you, do not ignore the sabot.
If you match the bullet to the rifling, accuracy can be startling!
Knowing how to shoot a particular rifle is critical too.
My new .50 Renegade barrel is completely different than the original, even though both are "M" stamps. The original shot best when the powder was just kissed. The new one scatters like a shotgun when lightly rammed. Lean on the rammer a bit harder and things are nice. LEAN on it and oh MY! I could hit a deer in the eye 3x3 at 50 yards. Not bad for a 1-48 flintlock shooting 45 caliber 230 grain XTP's in Harvester crush ribs and 70 grains of 3f Swiss.
The 250 XTP needs a 1-49, according to Greenhill, and is a superb game bullet. Side locks are becoming more interesting to me. The ability to used the same loads I do in my Firehawk is excellent. Their ability to use more primitive (?) loads adds to their versatility.

Just an FYI....my brother in law shoots saboted 260gr speer jhp (very similar to XTP in every way) from his lyman deerstalker very well, which is 1:48

 

[edmehlig]

Just an FYI....my brother in law shoots saboted 260gr speer jhp (very similar to XTP in every way) from his lyman deerstalker very well, which is 1:48

Curious as to what sabots load etc. I don't expect to get Fantastic groups as mine is a Flintlock.

 

[Matthew323]

It is apparent to me from all that I have learned here at MM, that the plastic sabot has been a complete game changer for muzzleloading.

Not only do they work in percussion inline rifles, but as this thread is showing with the OP's, and other's posts, they also have the potential to work well in barrels with 1-48" twists.

And, why not? The knock on T/C rifles from the very beginning, other labeling their first gun a Hawken (when in truth it bore more resemblence to an English Sporting Rifle); was that the barrels were button rifled with grooves that were only 0.005" deep.

EVERYONE KNOWS that muzzleloading rifle barrels have to have grooves that are AT LEAST 0.010" deep, preferably deeper (tongue-in-cheek).

With grooves that are 0.005" deep, ALL T/C barrels, with the exception of the 1-66" twist round ball barrels with their 0.010" deep grooves, should shoot sabots very well.

 

[Matthew323]

Curious as to what sabots load etc. I don't expect to get Fantastic groups as mine is a Flintlock.

Just because your rifle is a flintlock, should not in ANY way preclude it from performing with good accuracy.

Over on ALR I've read many, many times that unless a modern muzzleloading rifle barrel has some kind of manufacturing defect, said barrel is capable of extraordinary accuracy, usually far in excess of what it's human owner is capable of shooting.

Just a thought, but like Idaholewis does with his bullets, you might want to consider a wool felt wad under the sabot, if all else fails.

A flintlock will have lower breech pressures than a percussion breech due to the touch hole liner venting directly out of the bore.

On the other hand, breech pressures in a flintlock shooting a sabot/bullet combo will be higher than for a patched ball. And, the corresponding jet of flame shooting out of the touch hole will be longer.

None of this is anything to be worried about, except knowing who/what is to your right along side of the touch hole before pulling the trigger. Just ordinary situational awareness.

 

[dbowling]

Ed flintlocks will shoot sabots just as good as a percussion muzzleloader as long as it doesnt have a 1:60-70 twist barrel.. 1:48 should shoot 240-260 gr sabot/bullets, maybe even 300 gr depending on bullet length.