Sabots, sidelocks and other sources of happiness

[WV Hunter]

Curious as to what sabots load etc. I don't expect to get Fantastic groups as mine is a Flintlock.

Ed, I believe his best grouping was with 90gr Goex FF. And it shot very well, like sub 2" at 100yd with a peep. It is a percussion, but I agree... that's probably not a big issue I would think. The sabots are what came with the factory bullets - pre-packaged sold by Knight in 20packs. I believe it was MMP smooth black?

 

[edmehlig]

Bruce and Dean, agree 100% to what you both said. The problem is getting use to or remaining focused when the powder in the Flash Pan ignites!

 

[Confederate rifleman]

My Renegade flinter also shoots sabots very well. Once I figured out what seating pressure she likes.
My 2 Hawken and 1 Renegade barrel, all literally new when I got them, require Harvester crush rib sabots, unless I bring a hydraulic ram to load. They slug .500 on the bore diameter, as does my Firehawk. But the Firehawk has narrower lands and has less loading resistance due to less bearing surface. With the same loads, the Firehawk squares out the sabot base nicely, while none of the Hawken/ Renegade do.
Its nice to have 3 rifles that shoot the same loads. So far, the 230 and 250 grain .45 XTP's are outstanding in all.
I leave the 300s to the Firehawk though. With her 1-38 twist, she keeps those soup cans right about an inch at 100 for 3 rounds. If I do my part. Greenhill says that bullet needs a 1-39 twist.
Even though the Hawken and Renegade are ( much) heavier that the Firehawk, the Firehawk handles the recoil better due to the excellent stock design. That's most of the reason I am having my other Renegade barrel bore and rifles for .54 BALL. I leave big lead to my P53 Enfield .577...

 

[Matthew323]

Bruce and Dean, agree 100% to what you both said. The problem is getting use to or remaining focused when the powder in the Flash Pan ignites!

Over on the ALR forum a few months ago there was the discussion on how to deal with the flash in the pan / the inevitable flinch from same when it goes off.

The upshot of several pages of discussion was NOT to mention it to the new shooter, and to prevent the "OLD TIME SHOOTERS" from teasing/cautioning/explaining/preparing a new shooter about the flash in the pan.

If all the shooter is concentrating on is the sight picture, and follow through; which is ALL ANY SHOOTER SHOULD BE DOING, then the powder igniting in the pan will not be as great of a distraction as most people seem to think it will be!!!

And, that's how it was for me. With nothing but the Lyman Black Powder Handbook to guide me, no human mentors or tormentors, I did EXACTLY AS THE CONSENSUS AT ALR SUGGESTED.

I loaded the Golden Age Arms Company Lancaster longrifle, primed the pan of the Siler flintlock, and pulled the trigger without flinching. So did my friend Charlie.

We didn't have anybody telling us it was going to be a problem, so there turned out not to be a problem. IMAGINE THAT!!!

The other consensus to come from those pages of discussion was that once the flash in the pan was causing a flinch, to just try focusing on the the front sight. And, to REALLY FOCUS ON THE FOLLOW THROUGH. Swinging or moving targets might be helpful for follow through with a flintlock.

Edit to above:

I was fortunate in that I had saved up my minimum wage, after school job money, for over a year to purchase that GAA Co. flintlock at cost in 1971 of $330.00.

That got me a very well built, by today's standards, semi-custom longrifle. The Siler flintlock was assembled as perfectly as one could ask for. With one of the sawn German agate flints that I purchased on a whim, it sparked EVERYTIME I pulled the trigger.

And, a well functioning flintlock is a joy to use. I have been quite fortunate in my choice of builders for the 3 flintlock rifles, and 2 flintlock pistols that I had commissioned to have built in my past.

 

[edmehlig]

My Renegade flinter also shoots sabots very well. Once I figured out what seating pressure she likes.
My 2 Hawken and 1 Renegade barrel, all literally new when I got them, require Harvester crush rib sabots, unless I bring a hydraulic ram to load. They slug .500 on the bore diameter, as does my Firehawk. But the Firehawk has narrower lands and has less loading resistance due to less bearing surface. With the same loads, the Firehawk squares out the sabot base nicely, while none of the Hawken/ Renegade do.
Its nice to have 3 rifles that shoot the same loads. So far, the 230 and 250 grain .45 XTP's are outstanding in all.
I leave the 300s to the Firehawk though. With her 1-38 twist, she keeps those soup cans right about an inch at 100 for 3 rounds. If I do my part. Greenhill says that bullet needs a 1-39 twist.
Even though the Hawken and Renegade are ( much) heavier that the Firehawk, the Firehawk handles the recoil better due to the excellent stock design. That's most of the reason I am having my other Renegade barrel bore and rifles for .54 BALL. I leave big lead to my P53 Enfield .577...

Wonder if TC ever made a Left-Handed Renegade Flinter?

 

[Matthew323]

Wonder if TC ever made a Left-Handed Renegade Flinter?

According to what I gathered online, the answer is no. They only made left-handed percussion Renegade's, and not very many of them.

There is a right-hand flintlock Renegade in .54 caliber for sale at this time on GunBroker with a Buy it Now price of $460.00

 

[eekjellander]

Sabots are very nice in that they offer almost unlimited bore life. Used exclusively in 2 rifles, one blued the other stainless, I could measure no wear after 1600 rounds through each. Not to mention at least 3x that many patches for cleaning. To some the combo is... not appripo? But it does work, and works WELL. If reducing bore wear is important to you, do not ignore the sabot.
If you match the bullet to the rifling, accuracy can be startling!
Knowing how to shoot a particular rifle is critical too.
My new .50 Renegade barrel is completely different than the original, even though both are "M" stamps. The original shot best when the powder was just kissed. The new one scatters like a shotgun when lightly rammed. Lean on the rammer a bit harder and things are nice. LEAN on it and oh MY! I could hit a deer in the eye 3x3 at 50 yards. Not bad for a 1-48 flintlock shooting 45 caliber 230 grain XTP's in Harvester crush ribs and 70 grains of 3f Swiss.
The 250 XTP needs a 1-49, according to Greenhill, and is a superb game bullet. Side locks are becoming more interesting to me. The ability to used the same loads I do in my Firehawk is excellent. Their ability to use more primitive (?) loads adds to their versatility.

I guess I"m lucky all my side lock Renegades (fast twist barrels ) GM lined by Bob Hoyt to 45 in 1-18 and slower(not much) prefer 9LB onion skin (TOW)and a bunch of sliks cast by me from molds BACO/RCBS and Accurate . Target/hunting with real black is a great past time/Ed

 

[gle3105]

Bruce said :
"With grooves that are 0.005" deep, ALL T/C barrels, with the exception of the 1-66" twist round ball barrels with their 0.010" deep grooves, should shoot sabots very well."

While I agree and everything I read about a 1/66 should be a round ball, my Lyman GPR doesn't know it .
Darn thing shoots 250 saboted XTP's very well. Can count on 2~ 2 1/4" 100 yd 3 shot groups consistently.
I suppose the smaller surface contact of the 250's might be the answer offering stability.

 

[Idaholewis]

Sabots is one of the Few things i have not done hardly any of in this Hobby, I have shot them a Few times, But I couldn’t even tell you what kind of Sabots they were? I tried them in my 50 Cal TC Scout Pistol, a Green Sabot