Secondary Pressures...

[Anonymous]

There is pro and con to using slower powders, not just limited to 4198, but going down to 2015, N133, etc.

Higher charge weights of powder mean more recoil. Slower powders may not burn as completely as moderate powders, leaving more residue. Ignition may become an issue where it never is with a 5744, for example.

I like N120 vs. 4198 as it burns cooler, and more efficiently. There are many workable powders. Get past a certain MV, recoil becomes an issue, and plastic fouling may come into play as well.

No matter what you do, trajectory will never approach that of centerfire rounds. A factory 140 gr. Hornady BTSP .270 Winchester cartridge has a 10mph crosswind wind drift of just 5.7 inches @ 300 yards.

You can't get there with a muzzleloader.

 

[Mountain Man]

Very true, at least with the calibers and projectiles to which we are limited.

 

[savagebrother]

AMEN !!! mountainman,
the loads we have talked about here took many shots to develope. remembering that with a muzzleloader you are a reloader for every shot.
every rifle likes something different and its up to you to try different powders and bullet/sabot combo's to see which works for you.
i hope that you try many different one's for one thing its fun to shoot lol !!!
sb

 

[savagebrother]

ok randy,
you have the specs. for the .40 200 gr. sst what would the external ballisics be at a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps???
and your only not bruning your powder completely because your barrel is to short for the charge of powder your trying to burn. when i was shooting my .45 the thing i noticed about the 4198 powders was thewre was absolutely nothing left in the barrel, but an increase in powder charge changed the velocities very little, accuracy was not up to par. switching to aa-2015 changed the whole spectrum of things. the actual barrel length on my ruger is 27.4 inches of usable barrel-to long for the 4198's burn time and charge weight. the 2015 is right on- velocity jumped to 2800 fps and either the is weekend or next i will be bumping that up and i really feel that less than 80 grains of aa-2015 will take me to 3000 fps.
2015 with 250 grain bullets is really to slow, so is h-322 and especially with the savages short barrel. some of the guys have had custom barrels installed on there savages-most are longer for a reason.
recoil is not heavy with h or imr-4198 with 250 gr bullets.
sb

 

[Rifleman]

specs. for the .40 200 gr. sst what would the external ballisics be at a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps

What about terminal ballistics? I mean I am all in favor of speed with accuracy but I have my reservations about the 200 sst being able to perform like anything other then an overgrown varmint bullet at anything much over 2500 fps. Have you shot a deer at high speed with the 200sst?
Just curious.

 

[savagebrother]

here you go, she was just 45-50 yards away

i stopped cutting with my knife at the arrow, the skin on the chest area was blown away by impact, this is thwe entrance wound

this was the exit wound. she went 15 yards and died on the hoof.

 

[savagebrother]

one more for you aint that a purdy rifle !!!

 

[Anonymous]

ok randy,
you have the specs. for the .40 200 gr. sst what would the external ballisics be at a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps???

I have no idea what the BC would be @ 3000 fps, but for the sake of discussion I'll call it .190 -- thought it likely is well below that.

That would give you 16.79 inches of 10 mph wind drift @ 300 yards, VS. 5.7 in. for ye old .270 Winchester cited above-- not in the same ballpark. Naturally, it is not reasonable to think that a 200 SST was designed for velocities anywhere near that level.

A muzzleloader is no centerfire, but that isn't a bad thing. The .270 Winchester, around since 1925, made its name with a 130 grain spitzer bullet @ 3140 fps. The recoil in an 8 pound rifle equals around 16.5 ft. lbs. Naturally, there are far flatter shooting CF rounds than the .270 these days.

With about double the recoil, close to three times the wind drift-- a 3000 fps 200 gr. SST compares very, very poorly to the .270 Win., with a dubious bullet choice at that velocity.

 

[savagebrother]

for now randy, but i think your going to see a few changes in the next few months to come. you are always worrying about recoil, its not bad if thats what your asking or emplying. as we get a better .40 cal. bullets things will change and we will see much better trajectories. but you know to compare the savage to a .270 win. well you do have a point there. mm maybe i need to move on with plans for a .40 cal. muzzleloader shooting .375 bullets. mmmm
sb

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not good at implying, among many, many other things. :shock:

The recoil reduction industry is huge-- the world is worried about it, apparently. Not just selling pads, dead mules, porting / muzzle brakes, grips, mecury recoil reducers, but even to the point of factory "reduced recoil" loads. Comfort zone is estimated @ 15 ft. lbs. or so, with over 20 ft. lbs. enough to cause the average shooter to flinch after a while.

I hardly look at muzzle velocity alone as being "advanced." Reliability, accuracy, dependability, shootability, repeatability . . . all those would comprise a more advanced look at load development than strictly trying to get a muzzle velocity number up. Learning wind management would be a far more advanced component of muzzleloading than the hoary old "just add more powder" method, as far as I'm concerned.

As long as I'm expounding, I find muzzle breaks repugnant. If you just can't handle a rifle without one, it hardly is a suitable hunting rifle-- the shooter may already be deaf, but the guide may not be as of yet.

That's one of the beauties of smokeless muzzleloading-- you hardly need to attempt to burn 150 grains of powder for a supremely lethal load. 40 grains does it not just as well, but better.

 

[savagebrother]

nothing about what you have said is not true but again neither what i have said is untrue either. i personally dont like muzzlelbrakes either. my .45 cal. ruger is very easy to shoot with my load. now my load of 85 grains of imr-4350 and a 460 grain power punch full size bullet at 1900 fps really talks to you. you can shoot your loads all day long randy and thats cool, but you can take a step out to the wild side with mine, guess its up to the individual as to which road he will seek.
sb

 

[big6x6]

Chuck, I'm shooting 67 grains of IMR 4198 with .75" to 1.3" accuracy. I don't have a chronograph yet, but by the results had by others, that should put me around 2450-2500 fps with a 250 grain bullet.

Thanks for the very useful info there Mountain Man! I'd say it is very likely that some 4198 will make its way to Athens, AL. Great to hear of propellant alternatives...

 

[savagebrother]

sounds like a good idea chuck. start out a 65 grains and work your way up.
i am sure you will find a real accurate load in there some where.
sb

 

[Grouse]

I'd say it is very likely that some 4198 will make its way to Athens, AL. Great to hear of propellant alternatives...

:shock: :shock: :lol:

 

[savagebrother]

mjm lookin good grouse
sb

 

[Grouse]

mjm lookin good grouse
sb

Will a 250grn XTP handle 65grns of this powder? Or should i go with
another bullet?

 

[savagebrother]

not sure whaqt you mean?? but yes it will. the velocity you'll be shooting might be a little on the fast side but will get the job done.
sb

 

[geraldbergeron]

mjm lookin good grouse
sb

Will a 250grn XTP handle 65grns of this powder? Or should i go with
another bullet?

I use 25g SSTwith IMR 4198 ; start with 65 gr ( up to 69 gr); My choice is 68 gr.

.................................................................G?rald........................../

 

[big6x6]

mjm lookin good grouse
sb

Yeah! WAY to GO GROUSE! I may actually be able to get some of THAT right up the road MYSELF! With the inability to obtain 5744/N-110/SR-4759 around HERE I was automatically going to order it from Midsouth!

Who KNOWS....that may well become the official powder of the Loshbough/big6x6 Hog Hunt! :lol:

 

[savagebrother]

you know chuck i think you have chosen the right path.
sb