Sighting in techniques?

[mnoland30]

Just in case you aren't aware, a bipod changes your point of aim. My old range supplied large sand bags. I'd use one or two up front, and one in the back. Right before the hunt, I slapped on a Harris bipod and went hunting. Second day of the hunt I spotted a nice buck at 90 yards hidden behind a juniper. I was ready when he finally stepped out. I shot a foot low. I had to go back to camp and sight my rifle in again. Luck was with me and I shot the biggest buck of my life the last day of the hunt.

About 35 years ago, I made a sandbag out of a lead shot bag, and sewed on leather from an old boot. Still works great as a front rest on top of a tool box (sitting up straight reduces the felt recoil). It pays to really wash the sand before filling. It took 20 years to quit blowing dust every time I shot. I found an old leather purse at a yard sale and made a nice rear sandbag out of it.

 

[sheriffjohn]

Lead sled for short barrels. Bricks,sandbags, concrete blocks, chunk of I-beam, sleeping bag, minnow bucket piled up every which way for the 40" barrelled ones. I am not a purist.

Long barrels frustrate me but I like 'em. Walking back to the farmhouse to add more sandbags wears me out. There's always something in the barn or jonboat that might work, so that's what I do.

 

[Dave951]

my shots by just holding the gun, Would shoot to the left side probably 4 inches had 50 yards as I am left-handed. It has to be something that I am doing after I pull the trigger, but I haven't figured out what it is. I haven't noticed this same problem with my percussions but I plan to do a good search at the range this summer

And this problem is you guys shoot muzzleloaders like they're modern arms. Interior ballistics on a muzzleloader make the gun MUCH more sensitive to how you rest/hold it. If all you do is bench, you'll never see what I'm talking about. Bench then shoot offhand, you'll almost always see what this fellow did.

I am a black powder muzzleloading competition shooter. All my competition is shot offhand. When I do load development, I strive to have the gun as close to how it will be held offhand so that means no lead sled, no rear bags, no Harris, all so the gun will recoil like it does in the offhand position.

 

[Dave951]

Now that I'm not responding on my phone, here's how to get great results on a bench with a black powder arm.

Use a front bag. It needs to be high since you'll be sitting pretty upright to simulate the offhand position. Hold the gun as you would for offhand shooting, rest the BACK of your front hand on the bag. Grip the rifle as you would for offhand with both hands. This simulates the offhand condition pretty closely so when you do get off the bench, Point of Impact won't change much, if at all. Every black powder rifle I've worked with responds to this technique and longrifles especially. Barrel harmonics are real. The barrel flexes on firing and your body also flexes with the recoil. The force of recoil starts the gun moving before the bullet leaves the barrel. You can shoot from a mechanical rest, but all that does is give you an idea of what the arm is capable of but the Point of Impact will never be the same as offhand.

But what do I know about this......

100yd group with Enfield Musketoon. 58cal. Point of aim was left hand corner of the diamond.


Kibler Colonial flintlock. These are among the first ten shots fired from this newly made Kibler. Sights needed a tad of adjustment.


1863 Sharps cavalry carbine, 54cal.

 

[ENCORE50A]

And this problem is you guys shoot muzzleloaders like they're modern arms. Interior ballistics on a muzzleloader make the gun MUCH more sensitive to how you rest/hold it. If all you do is bench, you'll never see what I'm talking about. Bench then shoot offhand, you'll almost always see what this fellow did.

I am a black powder muzzleloading competition shooter. All my competition is shot offhand. When I do load development, I strive to have the gun as close to how it will be held offhand so that means no lead sled, no rear bags, no Harris, all so the gun will recoil like it does in the offhand position.

And the problem with this is that over 80% of modern inline shooters and hunters don't shoot off hand. If its not a bipod its a rail and if its not a rail its out the window of a shooting house.

What happens when shooting off hand is the shooter has to change his/her entire grip on the rifle, both with the trigger hand and on the forearm and the pressures of holding are much different than with a bipod or front, or front and rear rests. Much of that comes from the trigger hand and gripping the rifle with the thumb harder than when using rests.
Everything has to do with methods, repeatability and practice.

 

[bstorric]

I just made a rear bag the other week and it worked out really well. I used an old calf length sock and bought some 6mm airsoft BBs (heavy ones). I put the airsoft BBs in the sock and then ziptied it closed, then reversed the remainder of the sock back over the "bag" and ziptied it again then reversed it one more time, so basically it is three layers of sock over the BBs. I hope that makes sense but it turned out really well and I dont have to worry about moisture staying in the BBs like you would rice or some other media. The BBs are cheap too. All together it only cost about $10

 

[jlynch75]

I found over the years no matter what firearm I'm shooting at the range to practice the way you are going to shoot hunting. I go so far as to bring my ground blind to shoot shotgun for Turkey and bow for Deer and here it is hunting Moose.

 

[Hurricane]

Gorgeous location. Quebec?

 

[Dave951]

And the problem with this is that over 80% of modern inline shooters and hunters don't shoot off hand.

Yup, and those 80% have never learned to shoot and how many times has it resulted in a wounded animal they have to track across 3 counties. They've always relied on a crutch. Because they've never learned, then you get the remarks about 'why does my gun shoot different offhand?' and the real reason is the shooter never learned to shoot in the first place and how positional shooting affects everything. I've always advocated to learn proper marksmanship- standing, kneeling, prone, and bench. Once you understand how each affects POI v POA, then shooting becomes much easier. Sadly, many hunters and casual shooters don't understand that there is far, far more to this than picking up a rifle and pulling the trigger.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Yup, and those 80% have never learned to shoot and how many times has it resulted in a wounded animal they have to track across 3 counties. They've always relied on a crutch. Because they've never learned, then you get the remarks about 'why does my gun shoot different offhand?' and the real reason is the shooter never learned to shoot in the first place and how positional shooting affects everything. I've always advocated to learn proper marksmanship- standing, kneeling, prone, and bench. Once you understand how each affects POI v POA, then shooting becomes much easier. Sadly, many hunters and casual shooters don't understand that there is far, far more to this than picking up a rifle and pulling the trigger.

I'm quite certain that if 80% of the hunters never learned to shoot and just wounded animals, there wouldn't be any animals to hunt now would there.

There a lot of people that know how to shoot and just because they don't shoot competition off hand, doesn't mean that they don't know how to shoot.

 

[alternate]

A rifle moves with recoil as the bullet is going down the barrel. The more recoil and the more time the bullet spends in the barrel the more important the consistency of your grip on the rifle becomes. Slug guns and black powder guns often shoot differently from the bench than offhand because of this. The recoil and barrel time of 22-250 launching a 50 gr pill @ 3900fps is so small that there's virtually no difference in POI between bench and offhand. (the group is bigger, of course)

 

[Dave951]

I'm quite certain that if 80% of the hunters never learned to shoot and just wounded animals, there wouldn't be any animals to hunt now would there.

There a lot of people that know how to shoot and just because they don't shoot competition off hand, doesn't mean that they don't know how to shoot.

You're being far too generous to the average guy at the range.

 

[Mnt monkey]

Both shooting disciplines compliment each other if the one shooting allows them too. To those who are Masters with open sites, if you're out hunting ,walking through the woods, sitting under a tree or in a deer stand, and at the moment you're about to shoot a deer your mind is automatically going to assume the most secure position that you can,, hard for me to imagine if I'm an expert open sight shooter and there's something to prop my gun on that I'm going to choose to shoot open site instead of rest my gun, I say that because in my mind if I have to choose between a rest of some type or shooting free hand out of respect for the animal to me the obvious is the rest,, I would even venture to say that scientifically or statistically it is the more accurate method of shooting. I very much believe in practicing freehand and I do, possibly 10% of my shooting, I understand in most of my hunting scenarios there may very well come a moment where I have to take a free handshot at an animal and of course I want to be comfortable with that. I consider an expert free hand shooter to be a higher level shooter than a stationary shooter,, that doesn't mean that freehand technique is better than stationary,, it just means the one that exercises that discipline spent a lot more time getting to the expert level and he certainly has to practice to maintain that. A competent shooter should practice. Just a curious question if you're hunting a 10,000 acre patch of national Forest most of the hunters hunting are shooting freehand would you be nervous to talk a walk this the area? I'm probably more comfortable if those 80% of hunters out there that aren't expert free handed shooters find a rest.

 

[Ninering62]

Now that I'm not responding on my phone, here's how to get great results on a bench with a black powder arm.

Use a front bag. It needs to be high since you'll be sitting pretty upright to simulate the offhand position. Hold the gun as you would for offhand shooting, rest the BACK of your front hand on the bag. Grip the rifle as you would for offhand with both hands. This simulates the offhand condition pretty closely so when you do get off the bench, Point of Impact won't change much, if at all. Every black powder rifle I've worked with responds to this technique and longrifles especially. Barrel harmonics are real. The barrel flexes on firing and your body also flexes with the recoil. The force of recoil starts the gun moving before the bullet leaves the barrel. You can shoot from a mechanical rest, but all that does is give you an idea of what the arm is capable of but the Point of Impact will never be the same as offhand.

But what do I know about this......

100yd group with Enfield Musketoon. 58cal. Point of aim was left hand corner of the diamond.
View attachment 20444

Kibler Colonial flintlock. These are among the first ten shots fired from this newly made Kibler. Sights needed a tad of adjustment.
View attachment 20445

1863 Sharps cavalry carbine, 54cal.
View attachment 20446

Great targets, nice shooting.

 

[Ninering62]

I found over the years no matter what firearm I'm shooting at the range to practice the way you are going to shoot hunting. I go so far as to bring my ground blind to shoot shotgun for Turkey and bow for Deer and here it is hunting Moose. View attachment 20447

That sure is beautiful there brother

 

[Ninering62]

Both shooting disciplines compliment each other if the one shooting allows them too. To those who are Masters with open sites, if you're out hunting ,walking through the woods, sitting under a tree or in a deer stand, and at the moment you're about to shoot a deer your mind is automatically going to assume the most secure position that you can,, hard for me to imagine if I'm an expert open sight shooter and there's something to prop my gun on that I'm going to choose to shoot open site instead of rest my gun, I say that because in my mind if I have to choose between a rest of some type or shooting free hand out of respect for the animal to me the obvious is the rest,, I would even venture to say that scientifically or statistically it is the more accurate method of shooting. I very much believe in practicing freehand and I do, possibly 10% of my shooting, I understand in most of my hunting scenarios there may very well come a moment where I have to take a free handshot at an animal and of course I want to be comfortable with that. I consider an expert free hand shooter to be a higher level shooter than a stationary shooter,, that doesn't mean that freehand technique is better than stationary,, it just means the one that exercises that discipline spent a lot more time getting to the expert level and he certainly has to practice to maintain that. A competent shooter should practice. Just a curious question if you're hunting a 10,000 acre patch of national Forest most of the hunters hunting are shooting freehand would you be nervous to talk a walk this the area? I'm probably more comfortable if those 80% of hunters out there that aren't expert free handed shooters find a rest.

Thanks for a great post brother.
I think your very first sentence said it all in the nutshell. Both disciplines do & should complement each other, again, like you said, only if the shooter can apply them together. Though I'm far from any " expert " I, fortunately, grew up learning to shoot from age 7 with a Savage .410 single shot & 5-6yrs later I got my first 12ga pump. So the learning curve was abit long & tough at 7-8yrs old with that .410 hitting dove & quail, pigeon, rabbits & squirrels with. I shot a lot of air & trees believe me. But the training to jump shoot fast with only a front bead or open rifle sights at fast moving targets was priceless in later years. I never spent much " benchrest " shooting in my younger days, it was picnic tables at best with anything from sand bag to jackets for a rest to pick up hoods or farm produce cart rails. BUt I learned how to use my body when I had nothing else to shoot accurately & to use whatever I had avail whenever I could, from the closest tree to rock. All helped with the understanding of whats involved " mechanically speaking " to benchrest shoot pretty accurately too. Learning all the diff shooting disciplines & applying them together makes a darn good well rounded shooter & successful hunter.

 

[jlynch75]

 

[Jbrown69]

Both shooting disciplines compliment each other if the one shooting allows them too. To those who are Masters with open sites, if you're out hunting ,walking through the woods, sitting under a tree or in a deer stand, and at the moment you're about to shoot a deer your mind is automatically going to assume the most secure position that you can,, hard for me to imagine if I'm an expert open sight shooter and there's something to prop my gun on that I'm going to choose to shoot open site instead of rest my gun, I say that because in my mind if I have to choose between a rest of some type or shooting free hand out of respect for the animal to me the obvious is the rest,, I would even venture to say that scientifically or statistically it is the more accurate method of shooting. I very much believe in practicing freehand and I do, possibly 10% of my shooting, I understand in most of my hunting scenarios there may very well come a moment where I have to take a free handshot at an animal and of course I want to be comfortable with that. I consider an expert free hand shooter to be a higher level shooter than a stationary shooter,, that doesn't mean that freehand technique is better than stationary,, it just means the one that exercises that discipline spent a lot more time getting to the expert level and he certainly has to practice to maintain that. A competent shooter should practice. Just a curious question if you're hunting a 10,000 acre patch of national Forest most of the hunters hunting are shooting freehand would you be nervous to talk a walk this the area? I'm probably more comfortable if those 80% of hunters out there that aren't expert free handed shooters find a rest.

I don't consider myself a Crack off hand shooter, especially now with essential tremors. However, when I sit I always plan for a rest for my rifle. I now carry a shooting stick which greatly helps. I admit they are slower than off hand but it is that or quit. Come to think of it I always did prefer a rest if available as my heart always pumps when I see a shoot able deer!

 

[Mnt monkey]

I couldn't agree with you more,, some of us when that heart starts pumping and the adrenaline starts kicking in Fall apart and I know others that when the adrenaline kicks in and helps them focus that's always been strange to me I liken it to the same thing as a young athlete in the moment of when the game is going to be won or lost some athletes rise to the moment and some choke,, I have an uncle that is an expert benchrest shooter he doesn't compete that he doesn't place first second or third,, when you sit down and shoot with him on the bench he's hard to beat if you go hunting with him and a deer steps out he absolutely falls to pieces doesn't matter whether he has a rest or not I've had to finish many a deer hunting with him did he either wounded or shot four or five times all over the body because he couldn't handle the adrenaline and excitement of course I know that that's why many of us hunt that's why I hunt but it is amazing what adrenaline and heartbeat can do to the trigger finger. I'm 61 years old I've gotten to where I carry a set of shooting sticks or just a walking stick with a little right angle rest at the top of it almost always if I'm hoofing it. I do admire an excellent free hand open site shooter I would bet that most of them that you meet spent a lot of time as a kid behind a 22 rimfire with a brick of 22 bullets

 

[Dave951]

I can understand the desire to use a rest, but know that "where" you rest the gun can greatly affect the point of impact. Know your gun through experimentation on the range before heading to the woods. It's a huge issue with the black powder cartridge rifle guys. They often shoot from crossed sticks and have several methods for finding the harmonic point of the barrel.