Since it is important for accuracy...

[ronlaughlin]

Re: Re:

......BTW - that nice force gauge you show works by compressing a spring to a distance, which is then converted to foot-pounds-force......

Evidently i don't understand the spring scale. To me it would read in force units such as pounds. Where/how does it read foot pounds?? Me, i cannot visualize a unit of foot pound force.

Foot pounds would be a unit of energy not force, would it not, or perhaps a unit of torque?

 

[JStanley]

Re: Re:

......BTW - that nice force gauge you show works by compressing a spring to a distance, which is then converted to foot-pounds-force......

Evidently i don't understand the spring scale. To me it would read in force units such as pounds. Where/how does it read foot pounds?? Me, i cannot visualize a unit of foot pound force.

Foot pounds would be a unit of energy not force, would it not, or perhaps a unit of torque?

You're right Ron. What is really being shown on ENCORE59A's gauge is lbf. or pounds of force; not to be confused with ft-lbs of torque. His explanation shows how much better and repeatable a load would be with a gauge like his or a device like the Power Packer over using a plain old witness mark. We've been sort of running around the same tree together because I was saying at its simplest, any force on a material that you compress (or extend) like a spring or even a consistently measured load of powder can be expressed like this: F=kX where the force is directly proportional to the distance (X) compressed and k is the spring constant for that material. All compressible substances (oil, water, air) have a k and will demonstrate this phenomenon, even how much your chair cushion compresses when you sit on it. oke: or a recoil pad on your rifle.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Thank you for the reply. It was disturbing me that you wrote:

BTW - that nice force gauge you show works by compressing a spring to a distance, which is then converted to foot-pounds-force.

Your statement confused me. It was my understanding that the spring scale measures force. The spring scale measures pounds or dynes, or some force unit, so when you wrote about foot-pounds-force it hurt my brain.

RE: recoil pad. What the pad does is extend the time of the force exerted by the stuff going out the muzzle. Extending the time the force is exerted on the shoulder, reduces the magnitude of the force. Time isn't much part of using the spring scale.

 

[rangerod]

Muzzleloader's precision packer. Gunbroker. Muzzleloader section. Page 8. Very top of page.

 

[MuzzleLoadersPPacker]

Muzzleloader's precision packer. Gunbroker. Muzzleloader section. Page 8. Very top of page.

Yup... on Gunbroker and also on EBAY but the most info and direct buy options are on the facebook page. Not posting the address here because it's my understanding that it's inappropriate in this area of the forums but we're discussing it in depth with links here; viewtopic.php?t=28089

 

[WV Hunter]

Muzzleloader's precision packer. Gunbroker. Muzzleloader section. Page 8. Very top of page.

Yup... on Gunbroker and also on EBAY but the most info and direct buy options are on the facebook page. Not posting the address here because it's my understanding that it's inappropriate in this area of the forums but we're discussing it in depth with links here; viewtopic.php?t=28089

You could list it in the classifieds though.

 

[MuzzleLoadersPPacker]

You could list it in the classifieds though.

You know...I had wanted to do that but found this in the classified rules so I decided against it.

The classifieds are for the listing and re-selling of products bought for individual use only. The listing of bulk products bought for selling for profit may not be listed

 

[rangerod]

Ordered the Precision Packed. Report later.

 

[alphaburnt]

Not knowing the way these work exactly (the Kadooty, the Pack Jack and the new MPP) I began to think...Wonder if someone could modify or adjust this $2.99 center punch from Harbor Freight (http://www.harborfreight.com/spring-loa ... h-621.html) to function as a tool for this? I have used these to mark metal for drilling before and it takes a good amount of pressure before it releases. The Starrett models can adjust the pressure. Thoughts?

 

[MuzzleLoadersPPacker]

Not knowing the way these work exactly (the Kadooty, the Pack Jack and the new MPP) I began to think...Wonder if someone could modify or adjust this $2.99 center punch from Harbor Freight (http://www.harborfreight.com/spring-loa ... h-621.html) to function as a tool for this? I have used these to mark metal for drilling before and it takes a good amount of pressure before it releases. The Starrett models can adjust the pressure. Thoughts?

Well...I guess I'm as familiar as anybody with all the incarnations LOL. and I'd say I think the only thing an auto punch does that's remotely similar to any packer, past or present ,is incorporate a trip pin like the Pack Jack. Other than that, I think the oversimplified way to say it is that the punches kind of run backward compared to what we're doing. In addition none create the pressures we require, nor are they consistent or repeatable in any way. Then there's the issue of them mostly being long and heavy and fairly costly for quality units like Starrett. See schematic of a Starrett punch for ref.

https://goo.gl/photos/6F1yiP5qNGHr2PYq5

 

[Smyrnagc]

You could list it in the classifieds though.

You know...I had wanted to do that but found this in the classified rules so I decided against it.

The classifieds are for the listing and re-selling of products bought for individual use only. The listing of bulk products bought for selling for profit may not be listed

Since you are engaging forum members, and it is evident that you are not just here to sell your product (you aren't are you?), I will approve you listing it in the Classified section.

Thanks

 

[MuzzleLoadersPPacker]

You could list it in the classifieds though.

You know...I had wanted to do that but found this in the classified rules so I decided against it.

The classifieds are for the listing and re-selling of products bought for individual use only. The listing of bulk products bought for selling for profit may not be listed

Since you are engaging forum members, and it is evident that you are not just here to sell your product (you aren't are you?), I will approve you listing it in the Classified section.

Thanks

Thank you. Greatly appreciate the variance. Will definitely post in classifieds! I feel that if I expect sales and following it's ABSOLUTELY necessary to engage and participate as actively as possible, and we're happy to be here, although this damned electronic marvel consumes more shop time than I should allow. :lol:

 

[alphaburnt]

Well...I guess I'm as familiar as anybody with all the incarnations LOL. and I'd say I think the only thing an auto punch does that's remotely similar to any packer, past or present ,is incorporate a trip pin like the Pack Jack. Other than that, I think the oversimplified way to say it is that the punches kind of run backward compared to what we're doing. In addition none create the pressures we require, nor are they consistent or repeatable in any way. Then there's the issue of them mostly being long and heavy and fairly costly for quality units like Starrett. See schematic of a Starrett punch for ref.

https://goo.gl/photos/6F1yiP5qNGHr2PYq5

Thanks MPP,did you design any of the other ones mentioned? It does seem through other uses that the spring loaded punch I have is a bit robust for seating a bullet, which surprises me to hear you say that they do not create the pressures that you require. Consistency of the spring loaded unit and trip pin is something I wondered about too. The schematic of Starrett punch resembles mine, but I know that there has to be some quality concessions made there.

 

[MuzzleLoadersPPacker]

Thanks MPP,did you design any of the other ones mentioned?

No we had no hand in any attempts that came before, but we certainly became intimately familiar with ALL previous art during our R&D process.

 

[MuzzleLoadersPPacker]

Announcing our next FREE GIVEAWAY! April 1st. Like our Facebook page to be entered to win! Www.facebook.com/muzzleloadersprecisionpacker


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[toytruck]

Ordered the Precision Packed. Report later.

Any updates yet?

 

[Squeeze]

Wouldnt fit of the projectile itself regulate packing force? If it takes, say 20 foot lbs of force to push a projectile down the bore, it is only capable of retaining that 20 foot pounds of restriction force. (rough guestimate on exact numbers, but the principle should carry) You could push it down with 70 lbs of force consistently, But wouldnt rebound force push it back until it reaches that 20 ft lbs of resistance pressure that the projectile has on the barrel anyway? How can a 20 lb slip fit resistance hold any more pressure? You can push it as hard as you want, but upon release, it has to return to whatever slip fit pressure it is capable of resisting. Kind of a roundabout explanation, I hope it makes sense.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Wouldnt fit of the projectile itself regulate packing force? If it takes, say 20 foot lbs of force to push a projectile down the bore, it is only capable of retaining that 20 foot pounds of restriction force. (rough guestimate on exact numbers, but the principle should carry) You could push it down with 70 lbs of force consistently, But wouldnt rebound force push it back until it reaches that 20 ft lbs of resistance pressure that the projectile has on the barrel anyway? How can a 20 lb slip fit resistance hold any more pressure? You can push it as hard as you want, but upon release, it has to return to whatever slip fit pressure it is capable of resisting. Kind of a roundabout explanation, I hope it makes sense.

The holding force would be approximately equal to the sabot/projectile insertion force in this instance. This isn't always the case with insertion forces vs holding forces of different types objects. However, if you compress the sabot/projectile to 70#, you're compressing/compacting the propellant. There may be some rebound from the propellant, which would stop rebounding when its force and the retaining force became equal. The retaining force would be no more than the insertion force (in this instance). What you achieve is a more constant and consistent seating force.