Twist rate and bullet selection

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yoda4x4

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I've read that the the accuracy of a particular gun is greatly influenced by the twist rate of the barrel and the bullet selected by the shooter. That said, I never see any discussion on how to choose the bullet. Short of just buying a bunch of bullets/sabots and shooting countless shots, what is the best way to select a bullet?

David

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A fast twist barrel such as a 1-20, 1-24, 1-28 even to some extent the 1-32 twist are made to shoot sabots or conical bullets the best. The weight of the projectile which is normally in direct correlation to its length will be effected by the speed of the twist and the cut of the rifling. But besides the weight of the bullet you must also consider the amount and type of powder you are shooting.

In my White Rifles which have a 1-20 on the .451 caliber and a 1-24 on the .504 caliber they are conical shooting masters. But I attribute a lot of that not only to the twist but the cut of the rifling. Still both of them will shoot sabot loads just fine.

My numerous 1-28 twist rifles tend to be excellent sabots shooters and pretty good conical shooters. But the amazing thing is, lower the powder charge and many of them will shoot patched roundball very well. In my Knight LK rifles for instance, as long as I stay under 70 grains, the favorite being 60 grains of 2f powder, they will really lay a roundball down range.

In my Lyman Great Plains Hunter which has a 1-32 twist, when I was breaking the rifle in and getting used to it, I found that 50 grains of powder and it shoots roundball as well as any of my rifles. But it also shoots Powerbelts, maxi ball, and even more heavy conical bullets with larger powder charges.

Then you get to the 1-48 twist barrels commonly found in many traditional rifles. They will shoot just about anything once you find the right powder charge. Some better then others, depending on the make of the rifle. So here is where I believe the cut of the rifling comes more into play. I have a Traditions Hawkens Woodsman with a 1-48 that shoots 240 grain sabots excellent. But think of it, a round ball is 177 grains so a 240 grain XTP is not that much bigger.

I have normally found the 1-56, 1-60, 1-66, and 1-70 twist rifles of mine shoot roundball the best. And not much other then roundball. But then the rifle was made to shoot roundball.

So the reason so many bullets are suggested when someone asks... what kind of projectile will my rifle shoot? Well there are many it might shoot depending on the twist and cut of the rifling. And then there are others that might work for someone else, that it will not shoot.
 
So I kind of understand what you're saying. Let's apply this to a modern MZ. For selfish reasons I'm going to suggest a CVA Optima, which happens to be what I own. The Optima has a 26" barrel with a twist rate of 1-28. So what weight bullet would be ideal? And, would a conical like a Powerbelt Aerolite perform better than a bullet/sabot combination like the Barnes Spitfire T-EZ?

David

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HawgHunter said:
You can see from the link that twist rates makes a difference.
http://www.shilen.com/calibersAndTwists.html

Basically the faster the twist the heavier the bullet it can stabilize.

So is it fair to say that a heavier bullet, provided it's stabilized via twist, will be more accurate than a lighter one?

David

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I too have a CVA Optima. I have a BlackHorn 209 breech plug in it. I shoot 90 grains of BlackHorn 209 and a 260 grain PT Gold. For a rifle like the Optima I would suggest something in or near the 250 grain for sabot shooting. I have shot Powerbelts out of mine. The 245 grain Aero Tip were deadly accurate. I just don't want to hunt with that bullet or purchase them due to their cost.
 
A light PB is probably far from ideal in a 50cal bore IMO anyway, especially with BH209. On the other hand, a similar weight/construction .451 bullet in a snug sabot is just fine and should work better in a faster twist. Those light PBs are kinda like the lighter REALs. Both are better suited to a slower twist and powder charge.

Short for caliber=slower twist is better.
Long for caliber=faster twist is better.

You can sometimes get by if you slow them down or speed them up a bit to compensate if the twist is not the best match for your bullet.
 
GM54-120 said:
Those light PBs are kinda like the lighter REALs. Both are better suited to a slower twist and powder charge.

Short for caliber=slower twist is better.
Long for caliber=faster twist is better.

You can sometimes get by if you slow them down or speed them up a bit to compensate if the twist is not the best match for your bullet.

You lost me here. REALs??? Short, long, huh??? Pretend like I've no idea about anything gun related. Thanks.

David

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LEE "REALS" are a conical style bullet.

When talking about bullets for a particular twist it really has more to so with the "length" of the bullets bearing surface that contacts the lands and grooves. Weight just sort of goes hand in hand with length. So to elaborate on what GM54-120 posted.....

Short for caliber=slower twist is better. Shorter bullets are normally "Lighter bullets".
Long for caliber=faster twist is better. Longer bullets are normally "Heavier bullets".

So if you look at a 250 grain bullet and a 300 grain bullet (Same bullet & brand type) side-by-side the 300 grainer is longer.

While stability is a factor in accuracy it is not the only thing, it is just one factor to aid in accuracy. Your rifles 28 twist will stablize any normal ml sabot bullet from say 200grains to 300 grains just fine. With the production rifles available you really don't have a "Twist" option, they just don't offer it. That is something you would consider if you were custom building a rifle. So if you are planning to shoot any other over the counter sabot bullet combos, you really don't need to worry about twist. It could be of some concern if you had a 45cal rifle and wanted to shoot some of the Heavy/longer bullets in that caliber. Some of the Older .45cal rifles had 1-20 or 1-24 twists, that would be better for the longer bullets some want to shoot.

If you plan to build something and get into experimenting, that is a different thing. When choosing a "Twist rate" you have to first decide "What is the "Heaviest/longest" bullet you may shoot and choose the twist rate appropriate for that bullet. That same twist rate will also stablize the Shorter/Lighter bullets too. Then work the load for accuaracy by choosing the appropriate sabot to match the bullet size and barrel diameter and then work on powder charge to get the accuracy you want.
 
Ok thanks for simplifying that for me. So let me ask, would it be fair to say that a 300gr bullet should be more accurate than a 250gr or a 200gr one (for the Optima specifically)?

Also, based upon what you stated, should I be more concerned with trying to test different sabots, while using the same bullet? Or should I concentrate on bullet weight or powder charge?

David

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RIFLE MODEL CAL. TWIST RIFLE MODEL CAL. TWIST
CVA Apollo Carbelite 50/54 1:32
CVA Apollo Shadow 50/54 1:32
CVA Apollo Shadow SS 50/54 1:32
CVA Apollo Sporter 50 1:32
CVA Bobcat Rifle 50/54 1:48
CVA Bushwacker 50 1:48
CVA Colorado MusketMag 50 1:32
CVA Eclipse 209 Mag 45/50 1:28
CVA Elipse 50 1:32
CVA Firebolt 209 UltraMag 45/50 1:32
CVA Frontier Carbine 50 1:48
CVA Frontier Hunter 50 1:32
CVA Hunterbolt 209 UltrMag 45/50 1:28
CVA Mountain Hunter 50 1:48
CVA Optima Pro 209 45/50 1:28
CVA Panther Carbine 50/54 1:32
CVA Plainsman 50 1:48
CVA St. Louis Hawken 50/54 1:48
CVA Stag Horn 209 Mag 50 1:32
CVA Stalker Carbine 50/54 1:32
CVA Stalker Rifle 50 1:32
CVA Tracker Carbine 50 1:32
CVA Trophy Carbine 50/54 1:32
CVA Woodsman 50 1:48
CVA Youth Hunter 50 1:48
Traditions Buck Hunter 50 1:32
Traditions Buck Hunter 54 1:48
Traditions Buck Hunter Pro 50 1:32
Traditions Buckskinner Carbine 50 1:48
Traditions Crockett Rifle 50 1:48
Traditions Deer Hunter 50/54 1:48
Traditions E-Bolt 209 45 1:20
Traditions E-Bolt 209 45 1:20
Traditions E-Bolt 209 50 1:28
Traditions Evolution 50 1:28
Traditions Evolution 54 1:48
Traditions Evolution LD 45 1:20
Traditions Evolution LD 50 1:28
Traditions Evolution Premier 50 1:28
Traditions Hawken Mag Rifle 50 1:48
Traditions Hawken Rifle 50 1:48
Traditions Hawken Woodsman 50/54 1:48
Traditions Lighting Lightweight 50 1:28
Traditions Lightning 45 LD 45 1:20
Traditions Lightning Bolt Action 50 1:28
Traditions Lightning Bolt Action 54 1:48
Traditions Lightning Fire Sidelock 50 1:32
Traditions Magnum Plains 50 1:32
Traditions Panther Rifle 50/54 1:48
Traditions Pioneer 50 1:32
Traditions Pursuit (All Models) 50 1:28
Traditions Thunder Bolt-Action 45 1:20
Traditions Thunder Bolt-Action 50 1:28
Traditions Thunder Magnum 50 1:32
Traditions Tracker 209 45 1:20
Traditions Tracker 209 50 1:28
Knight American Knight 50 1:28
Knight Big Horn 50 1:28
Knight DISC Elite 45 1:30
Knight DISC Elite 50 1:28
Knight DISC Extreme 45 1:30
Knight DISC Extreme 50 1:28
Knight MHS DISC Extreme 45 1:30
Knight MHS DISC Extreme 50 1:28
Knight MK85 50/54 1:28
Knight Revolution 50 1:28
Knight T-Bolt 50 1:28
Knight Wolverine 50/54 1:28
Knight Wolverine 209 50 1:28
Knight Wolverine II 50/54 1:28
Lyman Cougar Rifle 50/54 1:24
Lyman Deerstalker Rifle 50/54 1:48
Lyman Great Plains Hunter 50/54 1:32
Lyman Great Plains Rifle 50/54 1:60
Lyman Trade Rifle 50/54 1:48
Ruger 77/50 Rifle 50 1:28
T/C Woods 50 1:28
T/C Big Boar 58 1:48
T/C Black Diamond 50 1:28
T/C Black Diamond XR 45/50 1:28
T/C Black Mountain Magnum 50 1:28
T/C Encore 290x45 Magnum 45 1:20
T/C Encore 290x45 Magnum 45 1:28
T/C Encore 290x50 Magnum 50 1:28
T/C Fire Storm 50 1:48
T/C G2 (.45 cal only) Contender 209x45ML 45 1:28
T/C Hawken 50/54 1:48
T/C New Englander 50/54 1:48
T/C Omega 45/50 1:28
T/C Renegade 50 1:48
T/C Scout Carbine 50/54 1:20
T/C Thunderhawk 50/54 1:38
T/C White Mountain 50/54 1:20
Savage 10ML (All Models) 50 1:24
Winchester X-150 Magnum 209 45 1:28
Winchester X-150 Magnum 209 50 1:28
Remington 700 ML/MLS Rifle 45/50/54 1:28
Winchester Apex Magnum 45/50 1:28
 
yoda4x4 said:
Ok thanks for simplifying that for me. So let me ask, would it be fair to say that a 300gr bullet should be more accurate than a 250gr or a 200gr one (for the Optima specifically)?

Also, based upon what you stated, should I be more concerned with trying to test different sabots, while using the same bullet? Or should I concentrate on bullet weight or powder charge?

David

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Change one thing at a time when you experiment. Sabots can make a big difference in accuracy.
 
yoda4x4 said:
Ok thanks for simplifying that for me. So let me ask, would it be fair to say that a 300gr bullet should be more accurate than a 250gr or a 200gr one (for the Optima specifically)?

Also, based upon what you stated, should I be more concerned with trying to test different sabots, while using the same bullet? Or should I concentrate on bullet weight or powder charge?

David

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Not really. I don't really think anyone can just state "this Weight bullet is more accurate in XX caliber or brand of rifle". I think most ml rifles will shoot the popular weights good if you get the sabot fit right and work up the charge that gets the accuracy you need/want, especially at normal hunting ranges of say 50 to 150 yards. It does take experimenting and sometimes you can get a finicky one that takes more time than others, then you can find one that you put the same load in and both shoot identical. The rifle is really the only one that will tell you what it likes best. Some will just shoot what ever you stuff in it. If someone has the same model rifle you can try their load and it may shoot perfect, and other times it will not, but it can be a good place to start.

All of my .50 cals have a 1 in 28 twist. 2 will shoot .300 and 310grain bullets best and the other likes 250 grainers a little better. They are all Knights but one has a tighter bore and I can't use the same bullet sabot in it. I did try the same bullets in a different sabot that fit better and it shot ok but the rifle just showed a little more preference to the lighter bullet, and both bullets were of the same make.

One of the biggest things we find that aids accuracy with the inlines is the bullet/Sabot to barrel "Fit". There is a Sticky a the top of this forum that will give you some specs on Diameters of the sabot with a bullet in it. You will see that they can vary a good bit. Finding the right match between the bullet and sabot fit in your barrel will lead to better consistency in your accuracy. You also have to watch changing just one thing at a time when experimenting. Just changing from one 300 grain bullet to another can then require a change in sabot. As an example, if you could get a bullet that is .452 diameter shooting good in a Harvester smooth black sabot then try one of the same weight but happens to be a .451 diameter in the same sabot and it not shoot well so you blame the bullet as being inaccurate. But notice that the diameter is smaller on the one bullet and a simple change to say and MMP HPH12 may have made that smaller bullet shoot just a good as the other combo. To complicate this more...You can also shoot .44 cal .429 diameter bullet in your 50cal but you need to match the correct 44x50 sabot to get it to shoot.

I don't have a CVA, so others can jump in and recommend what they use, but If I recall correctly most guys shooting CVA are using the Harvester Crush ribs or smooth blacks, but you might also try the MMP HPH-24 or 3 pedal EZ loads. So I would recommend you try getting one bullet that you want to shoot and then at least 2 sabots such as the Harvester Crushribs and the Harvester Smooth Black and see what fits best with that bullet. If they don't work then you can try one of the others like the MMP EZ or HPH24.

You will find that most of the guys here don't really buy a lot of the "Pre-Packed" combos and instead buy bulk pistol bullets and sabots separately. This lets you find a good combo that fits your rifle best and is normally cheaper too. I have even seen that on occasion a change in sabot on the Barnes worked better than the one that came with the bullet.
 
yoda4x4 said:
Ok thanks for simplifying that for me. So let me ask, would it be fair to say that a 300gr bullet should be more accurate than a 250gr or a 200gr one (for the Optima specifically)?

Also, based upon what you stated, should I be more concerned with trying to test different sabots, while using the same bullet? Or should I concentrate on bullet weight or powder charge?

David

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Yoda,

This stuff is fun to talk about but don't over think it. Your Optima will shoot most any saboted bullet with hunting accuracy. If you want a copper bullet the Barnes will work just fine. If you're good with a jacketed lead bullet, most the ones available will get the job done.

I like to hunt with bullets I'm not afraid to shoot plenty at the range. Speer Deep Curls, Hornady SSTs and Harvester Scorpion PTs get the call for me. I do like to hit with 300 grains but use the 200 SST's in 45 Cal and they work just fine on a big Whitetail.
 
http://kwk.us/twist.html
There is a barrel twist calulater at thes address.
Barrel twist relats to bullet length in an exact ratio it is the length of a bullet the twist is planned for the weight does not change this.
Under stabilized bullets do not follow a preditable path, but a slightly over stabilized bullet will if they are over stabilized enough they become unpredictable.
The ideal bullet length for a 1 in 28 twist is .9 to .95 ; but other length bullets can be made to fly well by adjusting the speed up or down from 1800 FPS according to the bullet length.
As an example a round ball can be made to shoot accurate by reducing the load to around 50 grains.
 
This is a quote from Ballistic ENGLE research
Greenhill Formula for Rifling Twists

The Time-honored Greenhill formula was originally used for determining twist rates in the new rifled artillery in the 19th Century.. It is important to note that it is projectile *length*, not *weight* which is the determining factor when considering the best twist rate for your intended use. Weight can vary for a specific bullet length from use of different material and also is determined to some degree by projectile shape. Often long-range match shooters utilizing low drag or VLD projectiles will voice a preference for "lazy" twists; i.e. just enough to stabilize the bullet. The requirements of a Shooter who is utilizing both high velocity and Subsonic ammunition are quite different.

When utilizing subsonic ammunition there is another factor to take into consideration. The projectile not only has only (about) 1/3 of the forward velocity of standard ammunition in Rifle calibers, it also has 1/3 of the *rotational* velocity...think "RPM's". This makes for a less gyroscopically-stable projectile, so a faster rate of twist is indicated than by simply applying Greenhill alone. This wisdom was imparted to me in a conversation with the great barrel-maker Boots Obermeyer. It makes perfect sense, and doubly so coming from him, so we'll take it as Gospel.

Greenhill Formula For Rifling Twists

T*B=150*Sqrt (Density of Lead/Density of Bullet)

T=Twist

B= Bullet length

Both units have to be in 'Calibers', density portion is optional
 
tpcollins said:
Cayuga makes a good point about powder and load (in other words velocity). Here's a JBM stability program where you can input your data of your bullet choice and then tweak the velocity until you find a SG of 1.4 - 1.8. Good luck.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Couple questions...

How would I know what my muzzle velocity is if I don't have a chronograph?

And, would it be fair to say that the higher the stability number the better?

David

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yoda4x4 said:
tpcollins said:
Cayuga makes a good point about powder and load (in other words velocity). Here's a JBM stability program where you can input your data of your bullet choice and then tweak the velocity until you find a SG of 1.4 - 1.8. Good luck.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi

Couple questions...

How would I know what my muzzle velocity is if I don't have a chronograph?

And, would it be fair to say that the higher the stability number the better?

David

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk


That would be a bit tough without a chrony, Yes, I think the higher the better as I've read that bench shooters try to get in the 1.7 to 1.8 range. I'm under the impression that going over 1.8 or so the stability starts to deteriorate. Maybe you can get some velocity data online with the load you're using but without a chrony for verification it's a crap shoot.
 

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