Why did you buy a NULA?

[Pinedale]

I currently own a Knight .50 cal Master Hunter SS TH and have been looking at the Ultra Light Arms rifle. My Knight has served my well enough in the past that I've had no real reason to look elsewhere. But my son is interested in it and I'm happy for an excuse to look at a new rifle. I already own a Model 20 ULA .22 rifle so I'm familiar with the company.
But I'm curious to know from NULA owners what made them buy theirs' over, say, the Savage ML? I'm in a State that currently allows smokeless powder but no scopes during the Blackpowder Season.
Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

 

[GM54-120]

I got a great deal on mine and its the lightest full sized ML ive seen. Extremely accurate too and you will likely never need a new breach plug or those pesky vent liners.

Cons
Factory ramrod sucks
No iron sites if you need them.
Priming can be a challenge by hand.

Pros
Too many to list

 

[Lawdwaz]

I already owned a couple LH NULA CF rifles. Stumbled onto a LH NULA 209 on another board at a very reasonable price, watched it for a week or so before pulling the trigger and haven't looked back.

Accurate & well made. Dealing with Melvin Forbes is a pleasure and the icing on the cake.

I have never handled a Savage smokeless until this past week. What a POS as far as craftsmanship are concerned. Accurate? Seemed to be. I'd rather hunt with my old Encore ML than one of those Savage ML II rifles. As always, YMMV.

 

[Crickett]

I ordered my NULA in early 2007 and got it in late 2007. At the time, I owned 3 Savage ML2's and had the Savages shooting well...each gun had it's quirks but shot well.

The NULA arrived by FedEX and I added a scope and shot the next day with the popular load of 44 grains 4759, 275 Parker BE, Harvester short black, CCI 209M. After 2-3 shots to get on paper, the first 3 shots were under an inch at 100 yds. The NULA has been incredibly consistent. Load development has been much easier with the NULA than the Savage. That said, I purchased the NULA hoping for quality, light weight, predictability and consistency....which is exactly what I got. The gun has been a pleasure and currently has 878 shots recorded.

For clarity, the NULA was my 'go to' muzzleloader for 13 months until RB put a Pac Nor .45 barrel on my Savage.

 

[Pinedale]

Good points. Pretty much exactly what I was expecting. I know that it's too late in the year to order one for this season. I'm already planning for next year. If I can find a deal on one by next spring-great. If not, I think that I'll end up giving Mr. Forbes a call. I just need to get the iron sights figured out. I believe that he can mount talley bases on the rifle that accept a sight.

 

[Crickett]

I recall someone using iron sights. Seems that Melvin put a 'sweat on' front sight similar to the way that he mounts the ramrod holder. If I was doing it over again, I would not have provisions to carry the ramrod on the gun as I use a takedown rod. I guess the holder could be easily removed with heat but I have had the gun 'Black Iced' ....

Regardless, good luck. Really nice guns.

 

[GM54-120]

I seem to remember a thread about someone adding a front site that looked similar to a Ruger #1 IIRC. It may have clamped around the barrel..im not really sure how it attached.

Ive got a Savage 50 SS/Laminate and its not bad if i want to shoot a 458 325gr FTX. Its the only bullet ive shot with two powders and its ok. Shoot the same bullet in the NULA and its a bit brisk. Im not sure why but it just didn't grab my interest in a hunting SML like the NULA did.

Probably because i really like carbines and the NULA feels like a carbine at least in weight. The balance is quite surprising though for its barrel length and weight.

I also have a Savage with a 27" Pacnor SS 45 SM grade barrel. Its a heavy beast but i may use it this year in the late ML season. The NULA and my GMB54 will likely be with me on the opening weekend of CF and the anterless only season. Im really curious to see how the 225gr XPB will do on deer. Mine sure isnt fussy with any bullets i want to shoot sofar with N110.

 

[santoslhalper]

I'm in a State that currently allows smokeless powder but no scopes during the Blackpowder Season.
Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

I guess I'm not sure why you want a NULA, unless you have money to burn, considering the primary advantage of a smokeless muzzy over a conventional muzzy is the ability to reach out and touch a deer (or other game) at long range. Without a scope, unless you are Davy Crockett, a smokeless muzzy doesn't have much of any advantages over a conventional one. I'm not trying to create a fuss here, I guess I'm just wondering why you want to spend a considerable amount of money on a NULA with iron sights when many other muzzy's a grand less will do the same job.

 

[Mountainam]

Santos, Pinedale says he owns a Knight MH---so he respects quality and accuracy. With a NULA you have both plus ease of cleaning and such. It's hard to go back to production class quality OR the lack thereof. If you start out with what you want to end up with----you're money ahead and the headaches of the cheap crud that is flooding the market. These rifles are for the crowd that want something a cut above the rest. Sadly I don't own one, but I certainly understand WHY the guys that have them do. Oh yeah, and you'd be amazed what an extra 400fps will do to flatten out your trajectory. Pinedale just needs to get involved in a letter writing campaign for some ML rule changes in his home State, but for now get that NULA drilled and tapped for irons or perhaps a peep.

 

[GM54-120]

santoslhalper

Since i own many Knights i think i can give a good answer to that.

The NULA ready to hunt without a scope will be under 6lbs. Not one Knight comes close. Naked they ship at just under 5lbs.

The bolt/action/plug tolerances are so tight there is no blowby at all if you use a CCI209M primer. The plugs last a VERY long time too and works great with BH209.

The quick release bolt also has 2 rear locking lugs and is forged stress relieved ordnance grade steel. Ive seen many centerfires with cheaper quality bolts.

It comes with a real Timney trigger that Melvin designed and ships at 2lbs.

It has a Douglas Premium Grade barrel that is smooth as silk. GM makes a good barrel but these are noticeably better. Plus you can choose the twist you want.

Most of this wont make a difference to the average deer hunter that is required to use iron sites but it sure is a nice edge if you want more knock down and less maintenance. The OP though might be more than average with irons site. I certainly am not. Its nice to almost never NEED to clean you gun if you use smokeless. A quick wipe down and breach plug inspection is usually all it needs. You can clean it when you feel like it. There is no need to worry about first shot POI variations on a fouled bore that isn't going to rust.

I really enjoy my Knights and especially my GMB54 but a NULA is a cut above and for $1300 it better be.

 

[santoslhalper]

GM,

Thanks for all the extra info. I was not familiar with all the specs of a NULA. I can appreciate the high build quality, excellent barrel & trigger and ease of cleaning. As for the weight, I guess I never understood the light rifle craze. I personally prefer a heavier rifle- they shoulder better for me, feel more solid, and soak up recoil. And after many years working masonry hauling bricks, block and mud around for 10 hours a day, I've never been bothered by the weight of a rifle. Now if I had back problems or was, well, how should we say... closer to senior citizen status, then I can see how the weight issue might be important.

I have been toying with the idea for several years now of going smokeless, but I always figured I would buy a Savage. Now that they are no longer making them..... I guess a used Savage . I guess I can see the virtues of a NULA, but for me personally, I would rather spend half the $$$ and buy a Savage if I were to go smokeless.

And for the original question regarding iron sights, I guess I still don't see the reason to spend $1300 over a $500 Knight that can shoot BH unless the weight is an issue, which I understand is for some. The Knight has great build quality, great barrel, great trigger and when shooting BH209, cleaning is not so much of an issue. With iron sights, the range advantage of a smokeless is pretty much negated compared to a similar quality rifle shooting stout loads of BH or T7.

But hey, to each is own- everyone is free to spend their money how they choose. And I do understand that sometimes you just really want something and are going to get it, even if financially/logically it doesn't quite all add up. One of the pickups I bought years ago was for this reason :lol:

 

[GM54-120]

Savages are still being made actually.

I can actually duplicate a T7 or BH209 loads with quite a bit less felt recoil and cost with smokeless. I can even achieve more fps and still have less felt recoil using the same bullet.

41gr of my preferred powder makes about 200-300 more fps with similar felt recoil and a 250gr bullet vs subs. I can easily bring that upto about 400 more fps with 43gr. That bullet then delivers FAR more fpe at impact at any range.

I also own a custom Savage/Pacnor 45 and a Savage SS/Laminate 50cal. Both are over 10lbs scoped and over 7lbs bare. Just my Pacnor barrel weighs more than my NULA. I wouldn't consider either more accurate than my NULA even though the Pacnor Super Match grade barrel alone is $400-500+ depending on the specs you want. It may have a range advantage but only due to lighter recoil of the 40-200gr bullet. I can get them moving over 2600fps with ease and the sabots look better than my best BH209 loads in my Knights. The powder i use for that load is only $23lb.

Like Mountainm said, until you have held both and shot them. You probably wont fully appreciate all the advantages of a custom hand built smokeless ML. The NULA is actually one of the least expensive of the customs and so far the least finicky ML ive ever shot.

 

[nate121080]

Santos Im a lot like you. Have done mason, carpentry, farming work since I was 8. Am now almost 31. I consider myself above normal strength? I bought my nula for 2 reasons: 1. lightweight 2. smokeless. When your normal walk is 2 hours in and its in billy goat country you will appreciate the light weight. I hunted with the savage for one season and knew right away it had to go! If you walk a few hundred yards or drive the four wheeler to your stand then I agree the nula is overkill unless you just have good taste for fine firearms.

Gm is correct on all accounts. The savage is finicky even though a few have got lucky and had a good shooter out of the box. Not mine nor are the ones my buddies have that I'm working up loads for. Have spent easily over $100 just in a few range sessions and I'm still not satisfied. The savages, IMO, would be great guns if Savage would have stuck with henrys original design AND you dont have to carry them to far. My nula will shoot just about anything I can cram down her. Dont think I have shot a group over 2" with it yet.

As far as knights go, I've owned several. All have been shooters and a pleasure to shoot and IMO the best mass produced gun you can buy.

 

[scienceguy]

Well, here goes my 2 cents worth...........

Let me say first of all that I am not trying to add fuel to anyone's fire about which is the better rifle, the Savage or the NULA. I don't want to get involved in any battles along those lines. I'm just going to relate my personal experiences for you to take or leave.

I own(ed) both the NULA and several Savage muzzleloaders. Both of my Savage rifles were pretty good shooters from the beginning. I sold one to fund a complete reworking of the other. I went for all the bells and whistles....new bedded stock, third screw, and so on. That Savage would shoot consistent inch and a quarter groups all day long with the 300 XTP, on some days it would break the one inch mark. The finished gun weighed a little over 11 pounds. I shot a dandy 10 pointer with that gun, my largest to date with a muzzleloader. If I were to hunt only from ground blinds, this gun would be ideal. Frankly, I got tired of lugging that rifle around. With my kids grown and gone, and money less tight, I began to think seriously of finding something lighter. I decided to order a NULA, based on things I had read. Mine cost $1200 at the time. Looking back over my records, there wasn't a great deal of difference between what I had invested in that Savage, and the price of the NULA. My NULA is topped with a Zeiss Conquest 3X9, and tips the scale at close to 7 1/2 pounds. I changed out the ramrod to one that was a bit stiffer. Using a sand filled Bull's Bag, which grips the forend and reduces felt recoil, and a sandbag under the buttstock, I had no troubles sighting the gun in. From the beginning, the NULA never shot a group larger than 3/4 inch with either the 250 Bonded Shockwave, or the 275 BE. Other NULA owners have reported the same level of accuracy. I had the gun finished with a four color oak leaf camo pattern. It is as pretty to look at as it is accurate. Fit and finish of my NULA is near perfect. It is a joy to handle and carry. I learned the ins and outs of smokeless muzzleloading with that Savage. I can understand why so many shooters love the Savage, especially those on a budget or those guys who love to tinker and find ways to make a great rifle even better. I will be the first to admit that I am not into 40/45 barrel conversions, duplex loads, sabotless shooting and so on. I admire the passion of those guys who do. I'm sure it is a fascinating and rewarding addiction of the highest order. That being said, My NULA provides me with everything I want in a smokeless muzzleloader: excellent workmanship, light weight, incredible accuracy, and it fits me like a glove. Looking back, if I knew everything I know now about these two guns, I would have bought the NULA before going through the rebuild of my Savage. If I had kids in school yet, and the bills to pay of my younger years, I would still be lugging around that Savage, and would be happy doing so. I am lucky to be in a position now to afford both. The Savage sits in my gun safe, and the NULA goes hunting with me. I'm keeping the Savage for the time being, but if an emergency need for cash arose, it would be the first rifle out of my safe to be sold. I will not part with my NULA.

For those of you who are thinking about investing in a NULA, I would recommend you do so. You will not regret the choice. For those of you whose favorite is the Savage, I am happy for you as it is a wonderful rifle and another fine choice.

 

[scienceguy]

Since I wrote the above reply sometime back on another forum, I've sold my remaining Savage. I have just the NULA and couldn't be happier!

 

[GM54-120]

High scienceguy

Good to see some of the older NULA owners still around. I bought Chuck's NULA and took over some of his forum maintenance duties here too.

I do like to tinker with the Savages but the first day i shot the NULA i knew it was what i prefer for hunting. Just like my GMB54-120 carbine. The only reason i even bought a Pacnor was because Mel quit making 45s.

I even begged.

 

[Pinedale]

Great responses. I do appreciate the input. Yes, $1300 is a lot to spend. The animal doesn't care about the price difference when you're shooting at it. As far as state regulations go: 1)I hope that one day, the legislature comes to it's senses. There's talk each year about allowing scopes so I believe it will eventually happen. 2) I do hunt in other states where scopes are legal. 3)I can always put a scope on it and hunt with it during the regular firearm season, just not currently during the blackpowder season. I'm a fairly young 48 years old which means that I'm fortunate to earn enough to buy the darn thing if I want to and hunt with it for the next 20-30 years which makes the price a non-issue.
It's also nice to be able to mount the scope for sighting. It becomes a confidence builder for when you do hunt with open sites.

 

[Lawdwaz]

For what its worth, I hunt mostly in a "shotgun only" regular deer season area of Western New York and haven't carried the shotgun in about 5 years, IIRC. For a couple years it was the Encore 209 and the NULA for the last 3. This will be the 4th season for it.

10-11 deer have fallen to the NULA in my hands, all one shot kills.

 

[GM54-120]

Pinedale

Good luck with whatever you decide. Just to help you i found some pics of the action and bolt. It probably looks extremely similar to the Model 20 22RF you have already.

Bolt is recessed so the primer rim sits in it.

You can see the recess and the primer is nearly completely in the plug.

When closed there is no gap. The primer rim in sandwiched and fully supported.

You can see the bolt to action tolerance is really good. This one has a few shots through it and the finish still looks great. No slop at all.

 

[Corncob]

Someone on this board once wrote, "figure out what bullet you want to shoot and then pick out your gun" For me that would be a Barnes bullet and in particular for elk hunting. I may be brainwashed, or maybe brain dead, but I've dug enounh of their bullets out of the backstop to believe their "Unleaded. Unfailing. Unbeatable. " claim.

Reasons to buy a NULA:
Proven consistent accuracy
Ultra light weight
Quality
98-99% (estimate) of owner's rave about them

My only reason not to buy:
The go to bullet for what seems to be the vast majority of shooters is the Parker 275 Ballistic Extreme - a copper clad lead bullet.

Surely there are hunters using PowerBelts to kill elk so the Parker, IMO, would definitely be a better bullet. (PB fans - please don't pile on, that is only an opinion)

Luckily, the TMZ 290 shoots well with the crush rib yellow sabot in: my Savage HB ML, a synthetic Savage and my Encore. If you like to shoot a lot at paper, it doesn't get much cheaper, or accurate, than XTP (250 or 300 gr) and your choice of several powders using the Savage. When it comes time to kill deer, you can generally use SST's, XTP's and others. When it's elk time, tune it in with the TMZ's. If you're living large, use TMZ's on deer.

My opinion on hunting bullets:
First Place - Barnes in any product that shoots well.
Second - Bonded Shockwave 300 gr for elk, SST or SW for deer
Third - Parker 275 Ballistic Extreme
Last - PowerBelts (again, just an opinion)


The Savage advantages seem to be - less money, and lots of proven bullet and powder choices. If there are several who get good results with a NULA and Barnes bullets, then I will be a likely NULA buyer.

Best regards from the cob pile -
Cob