Why is the dreaded 'crud ring'...

[Hausser1]

a deal breaker when choosing to use T7 or not?
Does it...
affect accuracy?
ruin barrels?
cause seating/loading issues?
present other issues?

 

[WP79Vet]

I'v put a couple pounds of T7 through inlines and my TC Renegade. Crud ring is there, but so far it hasn't caused any issues. I'd say that the crud ring is definitely preferable to the levels of fouling and the potential for corrosion that I've experienced with Pyrodex.

 

[deermanok]

I think the crud ring has a lot to do with the type of primers used.
I occasionally shoot Triple 7 2f in my sidehammer guns, using standard # 11 caps. I don't even notice a crud ring buildup.
It's actually cleaner burning, imo than real black powder.

 

[WP79Vet]

I think the crud ring has a lot to do with the type of primers used.
I occasionally shoot Triple 7 2f in my sidehammer guns, using standard # 11 caps. I don't even notice a crud ring buildup.
It's actually cleaner burning, imo than real black powder.

When I shoot T7 3F with standard #11 caps, and swab between shots, I notice a bit of extra resistance just before my cleaning jag gets to the bottom of the barrel. Nothing serious, it's mostly gone on the second pass with the jag, and it's completely gone by the third pass.

 

[Okie Hog]

i sometimes shoot Triple Seven from my Fire Hawk and Black Diamond rifles using #11 caps. Sometimes there is a small crud ring when using 90 grains of powder that does not interfere with loading.

 

[MrTom]

More than anything I think it just is a nuisance and makes a second or third shot difficult when people really don't want to have to deal with it.... as in hunting. Every gun, every load, every powder is different and simply means a person need adjust to it. Or they can piss and moan about it and make their life miserable. I shoot T7 at the range and just accept the extra dinking with damp patches as part of the reload. I'd rather shoot than let a couple seconds of patching make my life so flimsy that I wouldn't shoot.

The crud ring is more perspective than it is trouble. And those pellets will hand you a more tiresome crud ring than loose T7, so there are choices.

 

[CatamountRob]

I used 777 for awhile but when my kids started hunting there was no way they could reload after one shot. I tried BH209 and I’ll never go back to 777.
I’d just use regular black powder before I’d shoot 777 again.

 

[Rickt300]

To me the best thing about black powder substitutes is they are available. When Pyrodex came out that was it's only attribute over black, that it could be found on the shelf at Academy or even Walmart. Pyrodex has all of the things you see in black, very corrosive residue that needs immediate cleaning. T7 generally won't cause any problems if you leave the gun dirty for a while but guess what you have to patch between shots, I always did so with Black so this doesn't bother me at all.

 

[Patched]

Maybe it’s just me…
but before any of these substitute BPs existed, I would get the dreaded crud ring with heavier loads of regular black powder….after the second or third shot I could feel the extra resistance needed to seat the ball on the powder…..resistance was always greatest right at or slightly ahead of where the whole “load column“ sat and ignited…feeling like a ring of crud in that specific breech area.

This same thing happens with stiff loads of T7…my most accurate loads are all stiff loads 90 to 110 grs…. I just thought crud rings and fouling are part of the muzzleloading experience.

But I’m learning here that BH209 characteristics are the standard to compare all the muzzleloader powders to...including black powder…of course the crud ring is easily remedied with some swabbing of the bore, a technique similar to the methods employed in the use of muzzleloading guns for 200 yrs.

In the absence of bear fat, goose grease, spermwhale oil this T7 fouling wipes out easily with some Windex and alcohol….I think a bore swabbing routine is just part of game.

 

[snapbang]

Ive been shooting black powder and subs for 35 years. Only shot a few blackhorn loads. I'm still here and still loving it. Killed a crap pile of deer using all that dirty powder.

 

[AH64guy]

The crud ring is worse on a barrel that has something for the ring to form on / hold on to in my experience with 777. I run an annual hunt event with multiple muzzleloaders - the participants all shoot a few shots for zero and familiarity, and then we load for a hunt. I have to balance what I can do in reloading the rifle vs what a novice or weaker person can do. The amount of crud ring plays a factor in whether I clean the rifle and then let the shooter load for the hunt, or if I can still reasonably expect that the shooter can reload again if they need to.

If you are doing bench work, it can be a PITA when sighting in, and if you don't want to stop and clean between groups, and if you are limited on time or range opportunity.

I have used the 777 pellets for years now, and weeded out most of my muzzleloaders down to rifles that don't build it up as bad, or don't really get one at all.

Had a new Knight trade this year that will be going down the road, as the bore is just rough enough to make loading very hard for more than 1-2 shots in a string. The bore "looks" pretty clean, but when you get into it - the roughness is there. By load three - you're forcing the bullet down to the charge, and it's an effort.

 

[Smyrnagc]

I think the crud ring has a lot to do with the type of primers used.
I occasionally shoot Triple 7 2f in my sidehammer guns, using standard # 11 caps. I don't even notice a crud ring buildup.
It's actually cleaner burning, imo than real black powder.

That was the trick for me...#11, nothing. Converted my old American Knight to 209 and it was horrible. Should have left it #11.

 

[drpatton]

When I first tried T7, I shot with 60gr by volume with my T/C Renegade with a GM barrel & CCI #11 cap. I didn't swab between shots shooting PRBs, so I began to notice the barrel was dry, as if there was no lube used at all. I looked at my patches and found them shredded and burned through. That is when I realized T7 was burning a lot hotter than Pyrodex or BP.
I later looked at the Safety Data Sheet for T7 and it burns 250* to 350* hotter than the other two. This is when I started to swab the barrel, lube it and then I placed an over the powder wad. No problems after that.
What I expected with T7 was unlimited firing without swabbing. Now I swab wet once, run one dry, then run a patch lightly coated with Ballistol, pop a cap and reload with the wad in place. This seems to work.
T7 does burn a lot cleaner and the bore is almost clean when I swab between shots.

 

[Shorty]

The crud ring is worse on a barrel that has something for the ring to form on / hold on to in my experience with 777. I run an annual hunt event with multiple muzzleloaders - the participants all shoot a few shots for zero and familiarity, and then we load for a hunt. I have to balance what I can do in reloading the rifle vs what a novice or weaker person can do. The amount of crud ring plays a factor in whether I clean the rifle and then let the shooter load for the hunt, or if I can still reasonably expect that the shooter can reload again if they need to.

If you are doing bench work, it can be a PITA when sighting in, and if you don't want to stop and clean between groups, and if you are limited on time or range opportunity.

I have used the 777 pellets for years now, and weeded out most of my muzzleloaders down to rifles that don't build it up as bad, or don't really get one at all.

Had a new Knight trade this year that will be going down the road, as the bore is just rough enough to make loading very hard for more than 1-2 shots in a string. The bore "looks" pretty clean, but when you get into it - the roughness is there. By load three - you're forcing the bullet down to the charge, and it's an effort.

I do not know for sure but what you have describe here, maybe the Lee shaver barrel method might work. It’s definitely worth a try before selling a gun. Who knows,, good luck…

 

[snapbang]

If you want to get into muzzle loaders and dont like having to clean and or care for your guns you probably need to find a different pass time. Muzzle loading has been dirty since I started 35-40 years ago and I dont expect it to change. Blackhorn certainly is more convenient but dirty is the nature of this sport.

 

[JeffB1961]

The crud ring is worse on a barrel that has something for the ring to form on / hold on to in my experience with 777. I run an annual hunt event with multiple muzzleloaders - the participants all shoot a few shots for zero and familiarity, and then we load for a hunt. I have to balance what I can do in reloading the rifle vs what a novice or weaker person can do. The amount of crud ring plays a factor in whether I clean the rifle and then let the shooter load for the hunt, or if I can still reasonably expect that the shooter can reload again if they need to.

If you are doing bench work, it can be a PITA when sighting in, and if you don't want to stop and clean between groups, and if you are limited on time or range opportunity.

I have used the 777 pellets for years now, and weeded out most of my muzzleloaders down to rifles that don't build it up as bad, or don't really get one at all.

Had a new Knight trade this year that will be going down the road, as the bore is just rough enough to make loading very hard for more than 1-2 shots in a string. The bore "looks" pretty clean, but when you get into it - the roughness is there. By load three - you're forcing the bullet down to the charge, and it's an effort.

have you noticed if the type of barrel makes a difference ? blue steel , stainless steel , nitride treated steel or knights dynatek etc. ......... do you think any of these are worse or better than the others at dealing with the 777 crud ring ? would/should a properly hand lapped barrel be slicker and offer less texture for the crud ring to form on ?

 

[AH64guy]

Dynatek - to me has definitely been easier to clean and less elbow grease.

Stainless has been second, but a coated barrel in blued or stainless hasn’t seemed to be much different.

When I say “hold on to” - it’s typically a faint rust or a frost in the bore that isn’t even close to affecting accuracy, but can be seen in the grooves. The bore in question above had a frost under the oil that can be seen when dried out - it’s not much, but it makes a heck of difference after the first shot.

 

[smokepolehall]

I have had no crud ring in my SS bbl, have had no crud ring in my Blued Scout flintlock. Also no crud ring in my Woodsman blued flintlock. Now my T/C Hawken gets the crud every time i use it. I was shooting 60 gr Trip 7 3 f. I put half a cotton ball over powder then prb. Using small rifle primer in an Accur-Shot. I had shot 40 gr & 50 gr & 55 gr prior no crud ring felt while running wet patch down & then a dry patch & load. I need to do some testing to see if its when i start getting a hotter load shot off

 

[Okie Hog]

Crud rings form when firing temperatures go high enough to fuse the potassium carbonate and potassium chloride residues.

When shooting off the bench i normally reload and fire about as quickly as possible. Can't do that when using Triple Seven: Firing a hot rifle quickly makes the crud ring much worse. It's best to at least 3-4 minutes before reloading.

The use of number 11 caps with charges of Triple seven <100 measured grains greatly reduces the crud ring problem. iI have a bad habit of firing large charges of powder at the range. One time i shot Triple Seven with patched round ball using 70 measured 70 grains. After ten rounds the rifle still loaded easily.

 

[NMSharps]

Crud rings form when firing temperatures go high enough to fuse the potassium carbonate and potassium chloride residues.

When shooting off the bench i normally reload and fire about as quickly as possible. Can't do that when using Triple Seven: Firing a hot rifle quickly makes the crud ring much worse. It's best to at least 3-4 minutes before reloading.

The use of number 11 caps with charges of Triple seven <100 measured grains greatly reduces the crud ring problem. iI have a bad habit of firing large charges of powder at the range. One time i shot Triple Seven with patched round ball using 70 measured 70 grains. After ten rounds the rifle still loaded easily.

My experience is similar, I have also observed that 2F is worse than 3F. I always swab/wipe between shots so not an issue for me. The best stuff I have found to clear the crud wring is:

MOXIE Citrus Liquid All-Purpose Cleaner.​

A slightly damp patch and a dry patch and you have a spotless clean bore. And its cheap less than 4 bucks a bottle at Lowes. Your mileage may vary but I have good luck with it.