Woodman Patriot conicals?

[03mossy]

Anyone had any luck shooting conicals out of a Patriot?

 

[Decay]

still no replies?

 

[LHR]

Can you be more specific?

 

[eekjellander]

still no replies?

I don't own one but I understand one of their claims to fame is light weight and conicals are known to be attention getters if pushed . Seems the trend is lighter/faster while I've always been a sidelock guy with occasional
under hammers/flint guns. Inlines seem lighter /faster and are quite capable of decorating the human body with different shades of black and blue with heavier projectiles . So sometimes less is more without a brake / Ed

 

[MrTom]

I have a Patriot that I shoot as smokeless and use sabots with copper bullets to hunt. I have dinked around with some bullet sized to bore brass bullets and a couple of heavier conicals fit to the bore in the 425-450 grain range using moderate 90 grain by volume Blackhorn 209 powder. I no longer have any curiosity in the lead conicals. I no longer have much curiosity regarding bullet sized to bore. Sabots and I are great company. Even playtime between different smokeless powders with bullets in the 195 to 225 grain range can get punchy. I tend to not be recoil shy but I do not like taking a beating either and in a gun that might weigh 7-1/2 pounds or a tad more scoped and field ready those lead conicals were less than humorous in the recoil department. Not only that, but it's also too much farting around with this wad and that wad and why, when I can dump my 56 grains of IMR4198 down the barrel, push a sabot and 225 grain Fury down to the powder, prime and shoot the center out of a 1" target dot at 100 yards and not feel like I have pissed off a mule?

 

[Decay]

I just ordered a Patriot. I'm curious about a lightweight lead bullet, about 180 gr in a sabot. Accurate makes the mould . Lead is cheap. I've got lotsa time. Tom; do you measure velocity and calculate recoil? What's the velocity of your 225 Fury's with 56 gr 4198 outta your patriot?

 

[eekjellander]

You need alloyed lead from Roto Metals if your making use of the FPS your gun will utilize (cheap )is compared to what ? Pure is not cheap unless comparing to store bought but pure will not stand up where as Lyman #2 will get you further and then water quenched for even more BHN . Here's a 2 cav from Accurate works well for me @200 .
Again the lite blue Harvester And Tom ((Accurate molds)has even lighter sabot molds

 

[Decay]

I got lead from Rotometals, and other sources. My preferred alloy is 96-2-2 in my 30-30 and my 45-70. IIRC that's a Brinell hardness of 12. I only water quench my pistol practice loads. I was looking at another Accurate mold yesterday. A 40 cal casting a 180 grain bullet. I already have a 40 cal mould casting a 247 grain bullet. (I hope to be testing that again in my Paramount this coming week.)

In my Marlin1895 lever gun 45-70, those 400 grain bullets kick the bejebbers outta me off the bench rest. I loaded them to get down to 21 ft lbs of recoil and good accuracy. I hope to be able to shoot a lighter lead bullet with my Patriot, maintain the accuracy, and keep the recoil tolerable. It'll be an experiment that I enjoy. Unless someone has already tried it and knows it doesn't work,,,, and explains it.

I've got months to analyze this!

 

[MrTom]

I just ordered a Patriot. I'm curious about a lightweight lead bullet, about 180 gr in a sabot. Accurate makes the mould . Lead is cheap. I've got lotsa time. Tom; do you measure velocity and calculate recoil? What's the velocity of your 225 Fury's with 56 gr 4198 outta your patriot?

That lead 180 in a sabot should be a pussycat for you.

Velocity will depend on the barrel length you ordered and twist rate. I have a 24" McGowan and with the 56 grains of IMR4198 I believe the 200 grain XTP in a blue sabot was clocked at just over 2400. The 195 Barnes Expander right around 2430 and the 225 grain Fury just under 2300. This was at the club one day last summer and a fella had a chrono set up for his AR work-up and I took those three shots not wanting to tie up his time and actually his AR had a break and I needed to get away from his blast. I didn't write anything down so I am working off memory here but those are going to be close.

Recoil. Scoped my Patriot is not 7-1/2 pounds. At the current charge of IMR4198 with any of these three bullets, during the warm months without any extra clothing I am good for perhaps 14-15 shots before I start to notice the punch. Last July I tried charges of IMR4198 at 56.3, 56.6, and 57 grains using the 200 grain XTPs. I tried one [1] 225 grain Fury, all in blue sabots, and can assure you that the Fury will not be done at anything other than the 56 grains again. That was punishment.

I'm going to order some 180s to try this spring, but honestly I'll hunt the 195 Barnes [I did last fall and it knocked the snot out of a doe] or I'll hunt the 225 Fury. I didn't get to take a poke with the 225 last fall but had it loaded. The XTPs is not a bonded bullet and I just think that at the speeds the gun is running I want bonded to get away from any chance of gernading.

I know one thing Decay, you'll love that gun. I also know that 77 weighed grains of BH209 and the Fury bullet/sabot and that the same bullet/sabot shot at over 56.3 grains of IMR4198 are not going to be shot again.

 

[Decay]

Thank you for the insight. Those velocities you posted give me the data I want to use the recoil calculator. That's what I do when it's raining.
If anybody else has velocity data for the Patriot, Fury 225's and/or 4198, or any other powder, especially N110 or N120, that would be fantastic info.

 

[Decay]

I hope the recoil calculator doesn't work with muzzleloaders, because I just learned that the 225 Fury pushed by 56 gr of 4198 outta the rifle I ordered (at 5.6 lbs) is going to kick pretty hard. Years ago when calculating recoil from my 45-70, in my Marlin1895 (similar weight), and a 7mmSTW, I learned all I wanted to shoot off the bench was 21 ft lbs of energy. While hunting I could tolerate a lot more. Maybe I'll have to shoot off the bench with my padded jacket again. Time will tell.

 

[eekjellander]

My grand daughter could shoot my Handi rifle and my Marlin 95 45/70 using 25.5 gr of 2400 (1/2 gr dacron ) under a NOE 350 gr -460-FN sized 458- 459 /BHN 10.4 , my hunting load for 15-20 yrs (still have 80+rds) thou I sold both to get a smokeless rifle . All I shoot is muzzle loaders now /Ed

 

[Decay]

Ed: do yu know the velocity of those loads outta your Marlin? All my reloading books and my rifle and records are in Wisconsin and I'm in Florida, so I can't look anything up easily.

 

[eekjellander]

Ed: do yu know the velocity of those loads outta your Marlin? All my reloading books and my rifle and records are in Wisconsin and I'm in Florida, so I can't look anything up easily.

Will get my range book after dinner point is with the bottom post on my 4 power Leopolds POA @200 /cross hair @100 yd and only deer retaining lead was quartering @160 end to end and mild recoil (like 30-30)

 

[Decay]

Early shooting with my 45-70 was for whitetails and hogs, but after only one deer season I put it aside with another idea. Now my 45-70 load is for Buffalo, American Bison. And I never went on that hunt. Too expensive. The gun rests in the safe with too many others.
I can't eat all the deer I want to shoot with all the rifles I want to shoot.

 

[eekjellander]

Ed: do yu know the velocity of those loads outta your Marlin? All my reloading books and my rifle and records are in Wisconsin and I'm in Florida, so I can't look anything up easily.

Sending PM /Ed

 

[LBAhunter]

I hope the recoil calculator doesn't work with muzzleloaders, because I just learned that the 225 Fury pushed by 56 gr of 4198 outta the rifle I ordered (at 5.6 lbs) is going to kick pretty hard. Years ago when calculating recoil from my 45-70, in my Marlin1895 (similar weight), and a 7mmSTW, I learned all I wanted to shoot off the bench was 21 ft lbs of energy. While hunting I could tolerate a lot more. Maybe I'll have to shoot off the bench with my padded jacket again. Time will tell.

Give N110 a try.
Ain't no way I would even think about shooting anything else unless I just absolutely had to.

 

[Decay]

I''ve got some N110 also, and I plan to try it too. In both Patriot when I get it and Paramount this week (unless I go fishin). Bullets and sabots should arrive today from Michigan.

 

[LBAhunter]

That lead 180 in a sabot should be a pussycat for you.

Velocity will depend on the barrel length you ordered and twist rate. I have a 24" McGowan and with the 56 grains of IMR4198 I believe the 200 grain XTP in a blue sabot was clocked at just over 2400. The 195 Barnes Expander right around 2430 and the 225 grain Fury just under 2300. This was at the club one day last summer and a fella had a chrono set up for his AR work-up and I took those three shots not wanting to tie up his time and actually his AR had a break and I needed to get away from his blast. I didn't write anything down so I am working off memory here but those are going to be close.

Recoil. Scoped my Patriot is not 7-1/2 pounds. At the current charge of IMR4198 with any of these three bullets, during the warm months without any extra clothing I am good for perhaps 14-15 shots before I start to notice the punch. Last July I tried charges of IMR4198 at 56.3, 56.6, and 57 grains using the 200 grain XTPs. I tried one [1] 225 grain Fury, all in blue sabots, and can assure you that the Fury will not be done at anything other than the 56 grains again. That was punishment.

I'm going to order some 180s to try this spring, but honestly I'll hunt the 195 Barnes [I did last fall and it knocked the snot out of a doe] or I'll hunt the 225 Fury. I didn't get to take a poke with the 225 last fall but had it loaded. The XTPs is not a bonded bullet and I just think that at the speeds the gun is running I want bonded to get away from any chance of gernading.

I know one thing Decay, you'll love that gun. I also know that 77 weighed grains of BH209 and the Fury bullet/sabot and that the same bullet/sabot shot at over 56.3 grains of IMR4198 are not going to be shot again.

A Barnes 10mm 155gr TAC-XP bullet in a HLBS with N110 is a very low recoil load.

 

[MrTom]

A Barnes 10mm 155gr TAC-XP bullet in a HLBS with N110 is a very low recoil load.

At 155 grains I have no reason to think it would have much recoil, even with the speed jacked up. I know N110 has less recoil at a given speed than at an equivilent charge of, say, IMR4198 to get the same speed. I'm assuming somewhat slower burning is the reason to that end. I have on hand and have shot the N110 last winter when it was cold here, but haven't tinkered with it since. On the list though.

When I first got my Patriot over a year in late 2022, I had zip for any idea of what powder to shoot in it and the IMR 4198 was suggested, starting at 54 grains for the three bullets I have mentioned. Some banter then started about how the powder may not be cold stable and you suggested the N110. Shortly after that I got the N110 and we got into a stretch of daytime negative temps so I made charges and set the whole shooting match in the garage the night before I went to the range to see how the 4198 did. It was at -7 when I shut the van off at the club, commenced to load and shoot with nary an issue and absolutely no indication that the 4198 was going to be an issue with cold, at least to that temp and I am not hunting in anything less than 10 above. Then I shot 10 loads of the N110.

I'd have to look at what I have written on the charge tubes, but I think its 32 grains of the N110 that I shot that same morning and it performed just like the 4198, no problemo. I just haven't shot it since. I wasn't shooting for a group, just seeing where the bullets fell on paper and if I recall that N110 group was just a hair looser but then I wasn't expecting tight.

As for bullets though, I've decided not to go any heavier than the 225 grain Fury and I probably will not hunt deer with anything less than the 195 Barnes but I have every intention of trying a couple in the 180 grain range for a possible coyote load. I've killed a few deer with the 195 and it does a super job but lower in weight than that and I guess I lose some confidence in killing powder in a muzzy, but that's just me. For the coyotes I may even buy into that TAC-XP at 180 to try..... see what sort of grouping I can get. In retrospect, I may try a couple heavier bullets to use with the N110 or even N120 just to see what the gun is like with those powders.