What is acceptable muzzleloader accuracy?

I'm getting ready for a New Mexico elk hunt in mid October. Dad and I are going, and right now it looks like we have 3 rifles ready to go, and I'll probably yet set up a 4th. We always take spare rife/scope combinations on any hunt, because you never know when you'll have a fall or problem with the equipment and need the backup. Dad has fallen on two previous hunts and needed the spare, so...

In setting them up, I'm wondering at what point a muzzleloader load is considered "good enough." I do a lot of centerfire shooting and have moderately high standards for those rifles. Currently I can get under 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards with the 3 muzzleloaders, and one of them gets just under an inch (0.909) with one combination. I've tried several different bullets/sabots/BH209 charges to arrive at this. All BH209 is weighed, not measured.

In my experience the "in the field, under pressure" shooting tends to double the size of one's groups, if not more. As a result should I try to do everything I can to get each rifle under an inch, or is under 1 1/2 inch acceptable? To date the 3 elk we've taken with centerfires were at 147, 31 and 450 yards so 2 of those would have been within muzzleloader range given our current accuracy.

I see comments about consistently getting under an inch with modern muzzleloaders so I wonder if there are any other tricks, or if it's like centerfires where you get the occasional one that shoots under 0.5 MOA and that's the one you talk about the most.

Any suggestions are welcomed.

I think you are at acceptable accuracy already except for the 400 yard shots. I have quite accurate MLs and I would even be quite hesitant about taking a shot at that distance.

Sometimes accuracy has as much to do with the shooter as with what's being shot. Your accuracy at 100 yds is pretty good. Try 150 and 200 yds and go from there.

I am entirely new to the ML world, but that said, take it as a short range game. 200 yards is a fair poke with a center fire, (though I have done much further).
I look at a ML as a fairly short-range weapon, (less than 200 yards, for me). I will add that I also hunt with a crossbow. My limit with that weapon is 50 yards, though others can shoot accurately a bit further. Just not my gig. (yes, I can hit the bull at 70 yards with the bow, just won't try it on an animal).

I shoot offhand-standing at the range and a three shot, 4" group at 100 yards is always my goal, using either a scope or open sights. Let me explain I am 63 years old and wear bifocals. For hunting, no private land - no bait piles - no tree stands and no homemade hunting blinds. The only rest I use while seated during hunting season is a once-in-a-while hunch-over and place my elbow on my knee -- or rest my forearm against a tree next to me...... that's it.

jims said:

I think you are at acceptable accuracy already except for the 400 yard shots. I have quite accurate MLs and I would even be quite hesitant about taking a shot at that distance.

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Oh, I have no plans for that. I was thankfully prepared with my 340 Weatherby so when the only chance I had a few years ago was 400+ yards, I did it.

We've been told to consider up to 250 yards. Not having used a ML on elk before I'm interested to see what others have done or consider acceptable with regard to accuracy. I took a doe last year at 80 yards with one of my ML and that's the first time I had actually used one on game.

I think you are fine already. Of course we'd all love all our guns to be sub MOA, but sometimes that ain't the case.
IMO, if I have 1.5" at 100yds, I'm very confident I could make a kill shot every time out to 200yds. I've never shot a deer at 250, but would think I'd be confident there as well (assuming I shot my rifle at that distance).

While hunting, its more important to me when shooting longer ranges to have a good rest, than a sub moa rifle. Enjoy your prep, sounds like fun

WV Hunter said:

I think you are fine already. Of course we'd all love all our guns to be sub MOA, but sometimes that ain't the case.
IMO, if I have 1.5" at 100yds, I'm very confident I could make a kill shot every time out to 200yds. I've never shot a deer at 250, but would think I'd be confident there as well (assuming I shot my rifle at that distance).

While hunting, its more important to me when shooting longer ranges to have a good rest, than a sub moa rifle. Enjoy your prep, sounds like fun

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Good answer :yeah:

If i cant get a rifle to stay under 2" at 100 yards using full power hunting loads, it goes bye bye. Someone else can fight with it.

That's a tough question IMHO.
I feel that can only be answered by the shooter himself. I am not happy when shooting out to 130 yards unless the bullets are within and inch to an inch and a half of each other. I want to know exactly where my bullet is going to impact that game.
Now sure you can say, and some will, that the kill area on a deer is about the size of a 9" paper dish and about 15"s on and elk so you don't have to keep them in 1 inch groups. That's fine if that's how they feel. Some shooters are happy with 4 or 5" groups at 100/130 yards but I'm not. I want to know that if I squeeze one off and my POA is the heart, I'll hit the heart. ( What if you only had a 3 inch clear shot opening on the game and your happy shooting 5 or 6" groups at 100. Would you take the shot? I would, because I know my rifle and how I group out to 100/130 yards . We owe it to the game to make good clean shots.
That's just my opinion and that's how I practice at the the range.

First picture is from the 100 yard bench. I covered the holes an set the target up at 130 yards and took 3 more shots.
( FYI, I use 110 grains of BH209, Barnes Spit Fire TE-Z's 290 grain or Mono Flex ML's in 250 grain or Parker B/E's 275 grain bullets and Fiocchi Primers ).

Ray.................GOOD HUNTING :!: :!:

Some of us shoot offhand Ray, and if you can shoot those groups offhand I bow to you. So, being an offhand shooter I accept larger groups.

If I was shooting off a bench with a scope i'd want small groups too, but I don't shoot off a bench when hunting. It's ok to shoot small groups to sight in the gun, and check the load, but after that they aren't needed.

I've watched guys shoot small groups at the range, and then completely miss the animal when hunting. I'd rather see someone shoot 2-3" groups at the range, and then repeat it in the field.

Pete,
I don't shoot off of a shooting rest like at the range rest while hunting either. I try to rest the rifle on a branch or brace the rifle a long side a tree or on top of a fence post. I'm sure the off hand shooters do the same when they are out in the field. It would only be the smart thing to do I think.
Funny, I've seen those same guys at the 50. They cant hit a barn door off hand if their life depended on it.

Ray...........

Acceptable for me is 1 inch per 100 yards that is what I expect out of all my guns off a bench using a lead sled rest if a gun will not do that what a hunting load combo then I have no use for it. Where I hunt I am rarely without some type of rest either one I carry or trees in the woods and I make it part of my shooting to use a rest that I will hunt with. A simple walking stick can be used as a rest.

I see a lot of hunters that only shoot their rifles a few days before the season starts to check and make sure it is still sighted in to them as long as they hit near what they are aiming at they are happy. I cant be like that and I dont let the guys I hunt with be like that either. I am comfortable shooting a animals at 200 yards if I have a rest and the animals is undisturbed but I commonly shoot long distance and know what my loads will do be they rifle, ML or shotgun.

I think you are very smart taking more then one sighted in gun per hunter I would also check my loads when I got to where I was going just to make sure nothing happened en-route.

hawgslayer said:

Pete,
I don't shoot off of a shooting rest like at the range rest while hunting either. I try to rest the rifle on a branch or brace the rifle a long side a tree or on top of a fence post. I'm sure the off hand shooters do the same when they are out in the field. It would only be the smart thing to do I think.
Funny, I've seen those same guys at the 50. They cant hit a barn door off hand if their life depended on it.

Ray...........

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Shooting offhand challenges me to get close Ray. Plus, i'm a still hunter, so I usually don't have time, or can afford the movement of using a rest. My shots are usually very quick when spotting the game. Sometimes they're even moving.

When I was a youngster my dad taught me and my brother to hit moving game. He setup a iron deer on a trolley through the woods in our back yard. Everyday after school me and my brother would practice until we ran out of ammo we had loaded up. It became quite a competition, and we both got good at it. Once my gun is sighted in I just practice offhand shots, and have all my life. It just feels natural now. I even made a pretty good living in the 70's trap shooting.

Muley Hunter said:

Shooting offhand challenges me to get close Ray. Plus, i'm a still hunter, so I usually don't have time, or can afford the movement of using a rest. My shots are usually very quick when spotting the game. Sometimes they're even moving.

When I was a youngster my dad taught me and my brother to hit moving game. He setup a iron deer on a trolley through the woods in our back yard. Everyday after school me and my brother would practice until we ran out of ammo we had loaded up. It became quite a competition, and we both got good at it. Once my gun is sighted in I just practice offhand shots, and have all my life. It just feels natural now. I even made a pretty good living in the 70's trap shooting.

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Amen to that Muley. Not everyone can shoot offhand very well, that is something that people should practice imo. I try to get a rest every time I can, but it doesn't always happen.

But, even being a good offhand shooter - its still better done with a rifle that is more accurate than less.

For the avg hunter at avg distances, if I had to guess.... 2" or less at 100yds is probably just fine. Most of us here probably prefer better, some much better.

I've shot offhand since 1991, after being forced off private land and onto public/state land. I never averaged 2" at 100. Sure wish I did! I probably average 3" at 100 with my Omega scoped. Then average 5" at 100 using my open sights Knight Vision. That's how I arrived at 4" at 100.

I shake more than I realize sometimes. The weather temps / conditions / wind.....etc.... sometimes dictates changes from day-to-day too.

Not 2" at 100 offhand, I meant the typical avg hunter is probably ok with 2" at 100 on a bench. I can see how my post may have been confusing, sorry bout that!

Nobody can keep the gun from wobbling. You'll just make it worse by trying to stop it. A scope makes it much worse, because you see it so well, and the more the magnification the worse it is.

What you have to do is time the wobble so when the sights/crosshair pass the bull you squeeze the trigger. The lighter the trigger the better. Double set triggers on sidelocks are made for offhand shooting

rangerod said:

Sometimes accuracy has as much to do with the shooter as with what's being shot. Your accuracy at 100 yds is pretty good. Try 150 and 200 yds and go from there.

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100% agree . . .

How a person shoots or practices is entirely up to that person. How he hunts or the method he hunts is entirely up to the individual. What we learned or how we learned to shoot or hunt is great for making us a better shooter or hunter but it's not good for everyone.
There's a big difference between snap shooting and shooting off a rest whether it be a Caldwell Tack Driver, or Bog Gear tripod stix or a tree limb or fence post. If shooting OFF HAND is how you done it all your life, then great. If your happy with 4 or 5 or 6" groups at 100 that's great also. Do whatever floats your boat. I like to practice off a rest and I will try and use a rest while hunting if I possibly can. I feel it's only fair to the game to make a good clean killing shot and not one that's going to wound the game and it dies without being recovered. Like I said before, if your comfortable shooting OFF HAND then by all means do so. I on the other hand like to know exactly where my Barnes or Mono Flex is going to make contact. Not within a 4 or 5 or 6" circle but within 1" of my POA.
That's the way my dad and uncles thought me to shoot as a kid..................... Remember......." AIM SMALL, MISS SMALL" ......... :yeah:
As far as shooting at a deer at 200 yards No that's not for me. ( When I hunted mule deer and antelope in WY I shot game out to 200 yards or more but that's with my Remington '06 or 270 or my Winchester 308 ). Big difference with the ML'er and CF out to 200 yards. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it's not my cup of tea. Max for me is about 150 yards with my ACCURA MR and 60/70 yards with my hawken.

Ray............ :wink: