blackhorn 209 vs triple 7

[bob g]

alright guys, i am relatively new to muzzle loading having taken about a 35 year leave of absence.

over the last couple of weeks i have been intensively wringing out a new t/c omega 50cal

i really like the gun, no problems with it, tight barrel bore as reported by many others, but all in all i really like it.

fitted it with a bushnell banner day to night 6-18 x 50 scope with t/c mounts... all is good so far

now over the last week or so i have shot just over 200 rounds using pyrodex rs, triple 7, and today this newfangled "all that and a bag of chips" blackhorn 209.

i use harvester crush rib sabot 50/45 and some of the easyloads too

i use hornady xtp from 240, 250, 300, and hornady 350 round nose (i forget the name) and some 405gr lead 45/70 projectiles

all but the 405's are .452 and the 405's are .458"

the pyrodex is as expected dirty stuff, requiring frequent cleaning, actually between every shot a swabbing at least. useable but not my favorite

the triple 7 is much cleaner, and easy to keep swabbed to acceptable standard over 25 or more rounds

so today i was really excited about trying the b/h 209... what a disappointment! hard to fire
as hell, if the barrel is clean, the breech plug clean, there is no firing the stuff, first is just a pop of the primer, wait, replace and then a pop... boom ( a full second delay) followed then by decent ignition, but it feels like maybe a few milliseconds of delay... barely noticeable but it definitely affects accuracy.

as advertised it works with subsequent loading being easier and not requiring a swab, but you still need a swab if you want accuracy!

then as the shots mounted the residue is like tar,
it cleans easily with an oil base solvent, but nasty stuff. i will try taking a vile of mineral spirits to see how that works next time.

all in all the best grouping with any projectile with any load amount of powder at 100 yds resulted in a grouping no better than approx 6 inches... barely acceptable if one were to very carefully place his shots.

did a thorough cleaning and switched back to 70 gr of triple 7 and a 45cal xtp 300gr with crushrib sabot..

after a long day, my brother showed up with his ar10 308 cal and put up a new high contrast target

he fired first, his hit 4 o:clock about 2inches out
this at 120 yds

i shot and hit 4 oclock about 1 inch off dead center.

fired three more shots and found my grouping to be under 2 inches, which is very acceptable given it was a long day and my back was completely done for the day... as well as my shoulder was telling me enough already!

i haven't completely given up on b/h 209, but given its difficulty in ignition, lack of accuracy in this gun and the tar like residue... i don't know if i think it is all it is reported to be.

i will work with some other solvents, maybe change to some mmp sabots and see if i can find a combination that will work with the b/h, i will also see if i can find some magnum 209 primers to improve ignition. but to be honest
this stuff better start to show signs of dramatic improvement or i am back in the triple 7 camp.

at this point triple 7 has proven to be very consistent, the gun and scope maintain perfect zero day after day, and when i am rested and not in excruciating i can prelube the barrel, drop 70 gr' of powder, and stuff a crushrib with just about any projectile and hit a 2" red dot first shot out of the bag... its hard to argue with what works.

other than i can't find any triple 7 on anyone's shelf locally, and i am running low!

i can get all the b/h 209 i want, but if it doesn't prove itself soon?...

comments or suggestions are solicited

thanks
bob g

 

[cayuga]

I might suspect your breech plug is not meant to shoot BlackHorn which might account for the misfires. And also the hotter the primer with BlackHorn the better. And a good tight fitting sabot. I shoot BlackHorn 209 but I shoot a lot of other powders I like just as well or better.

 

[Muley Hunter]

Actually, the Omega BP is one of the best for BH 209. I suspect you have a dirty flash channel in the BP. You'll need to clean out the flash channel with an 1/8" drill. Just use it by hand to scrape it out.

You also will need a hot primer? What primer are you using. The CCI 209M for magnum is one good choice.

You shouldn't need to swab at all with BH 209, and you shouldn't lose any accuracy.

Clean the BP, and try hotter primers. See how it does then?

 

[shguns]

Member Ron Laughlin shoots nothing but Blackhorn 209 in his Omega with great results.
A few points that I have found that are important using Blackhorn (BH) in my Knight Disc Extreme. The bullet sabot combo need to be pretty snug in the bore, seems to me that BH likes plenty of resistance to ignite. Winchester 209 primers work just fine and fit my gun better than CCI Magnums. I like to use BH in a very clean / dry barrel, I swab any oil or solvent out before loading.

 

[bob g]

thanks guys

i don't have a flash channel, no hole other than the one that is about .030" leading from the primer pocket to the hollow cup on the other end. this tiny channel might well be the problem, i don't know.

i tried tight combinations, some very tight
and really no difference.

i am using standard 209 primers, winchesters do just a bit better than cci but not much. there is still a very slight delay, its not much but i think it is responsible for the wider groupings.

if i swab between shots it seems to help grouping, bringing it down to maybe 4.5 from 6 inches so i am not sold on the claim of no need to swab between shots however to be fair if i work the delay kink out, maybe the grouping will be so much better that any difference a swabbing would make would not be so noticeable.

it also might be i need a different breech plug? who sells a special b/h powder breech plug for an omega?

lastly, do you guys that use b/h209 have the tar like residue? its more of an oily soot not unlike the nasty residue coming out of an old diesel engine between exhaust connections or a leaking turbo.. sort of like a partially burned oil like crap... its not really noticeable at first but after about 10 rounds i notice it building up around the crown of the barrel and if i swab the patch comes out really nasty.

maybe i am not getting enough pressure on the powder when i seat the sabot/bullet? i push the rod down till it seats, but i probably don't put more than 10lb of seating pressure... would that make a difference in the burn characteristics of this powder?

i do notice the barrel heats up much more so with b/h than it does with either pyrodex or 777
so it seems to me it is burning hotter as advertised? but maybe not hot enough?

thoughts?

bob g

 

[Muley Hunter]

Listen to me on this. Your breech plug is perfect for Bh 209. I had an omega, and it worked for BH perfect every shot. Get an 1'8" drill and run it in what you don't think is a flash channel.

 

[bob g]

believe me, there is no flash channel
maybe there should have been and it was not drilled? that i don't know

what i do know is this, i have cleaned the breech plug, put it up to bright light, fully inspected it, and used a torch tip cleaner to clean the tiny little
orifice that goes through from the cavity that the primer seats into, all the way through to the cavity on the powder side... there is no place for an 1/8th inch bit, or even a 1/16th bit..

i have tried to find one and there is none

my cva wolf has a channel like you describe, it goes almost all the ay through , but stops short, and is finished through with a tiny little hole
similar in size to this t/c omega

i suppose it is possible that they forgot to drill the flash channel? it sure as hell ain't in there now!

tomorrow i will try to post a pic of the breech plug and hopefully i can get a good pic of both cavities and the tiny little hole connecting them.

bob g

 

[Omega45]

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/

Click the above link. Pictured is an Omega breech plug I believe. If you fired 200 shots without cleaning the flash channel then it's primer fouling your seeing. There is definitely a flash channel in your plug. Cut the carbon out with drill bits by hand working up to a 1/8th bit which after cleaned will go in easy and stop at the flash hole.

An easy way to clean the plug is to put the drill bit in a vise then turn the plug by hand into the bit to cut the carbon out.

Next time you take it to the range have the plug and bore cleaned thoroughly. Run a dry patch down the bore to get any solvent out that might have been left from cleaning. Snap one primer on an empty bore. Run a dry patch down and out to distribute the fouling. Next load 100-110gr by volume of BH209 and your 300gr XTP in the Harvester CR sabot. Shoot, load, shoot. No need to swab between shots. When your done for the day remove the breech plug and run a dry patch down and out with both sides. Now use your solvent, Hoppes or whatever you use on your rifles and shotguns and alternate between solvent patches and dry patches till clean. Clean the breech plug per Western Powders recommendations after every 25-30 shots. Going too long between cleaning the breech plug may result in flame cutting of the primer shelf.

The best cleaner I have used to this date is Bore Tech Eliminator. Hoppes and other cleaners will get the job done though. After cleaning I run a patch of Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner down and out for storage.

Win209's, Fed209A, CCI209M and Rem STS primers are good choices for BH209. Don't use any muzzleloader specific primers such as Win T7.

 

[bob g]

guys, as much as i hate to admit this...

I need to get my eyes checked!

with direct lighting, and magnification, what appeared to be staining indeed turned out to be
a plugged channel!

(ok, you guys can flail me for being a dope)

did i tell you guys i am getting old?

yes there is a flash channel, and it was plugged to the point that there was only a .030 hole down the center, and for all the world even under magnification, it appeared to be a nice round hole of .030 all the way through! the carbon even had a nice concentric hole with sharp edges just like the other end, but with a small ring of what appeared to be a stain surrounding it.

i cannot tell you guys how thankful i am that this was brought to my attention.

this is a direct appology to "muley hunter"
he was adamant that there was a channel, and i argued the point with him, so...

sir i apologize !

thanks also to "omega 45" for the detailed instructions on the use of bh209

and lastly thanks to the rest of you for adding your helpful comments

i suspect this is going to fix the problem, as i earlier stated the real problem only manifested itself on the first shot after a clean out with a missfire, followed by a single hang fire, then all was good. now it is apparent that a tiny little hole maybe a half inch or more long is just too long to get adequate flame through for reliable ignition. even after the 2nd shot and ignition became reliable it was slightly delayed, and accuracy was affected.

i am still amazed at how the channel could fill to the top and leave the tiny little hole open and perfectly flush with the top surface, and look like a perfectly drilled .030 hole.

ok, now for my second excuse...

did i tell you guys i am new?

lmao...

thanks so much guys

bob g

 

[03mossy]

Bob don't be to hard on yourself. When I first got my Omega I had the same experience with this mystery flash hole. Until I read on here about the drill bit cleaning tip. I thought no way is a 1/8 bit going to fit through that tiny hole Lol. I bet she shoots the black horn now.

 

[Muley Hunter]

No problem. Keep it clean, and you'll love BH 209.

 

[bob g]

ok the baffoon is back again!



another simple question, how tight do you pack down the load using bh209? should i just seat the bullet/sabot firmly or should i put more pressure on it?

thanks
bob g

just to clarify, "i am the baffoon"

 

[sabotloader]

ok the baffoon is back again!



another simple question, how tight do you pack down the load using bh209? should i just seat the bullet/sabot firmly or should i put more pressure on it?

thanks
bob g

just to clarify, "i am the baffoon"

Equal firm pressure from load to load is what I try for, whether shooting BH or T7...

 

[Muley Hunter]

I pack it on the powder pretty good. It seems to like some compression.

 

[fisher1]

ok the baffoon is back again!



another simple question, how tight do you pack down the load using bh209? should i just seat the bullet/sabot firmly or should i put more pressure on it?

thanks
bob g

just to clarify, "i am the baffoon"

I try to get 30+ lbs. Use a bathrm. scale and push down on it w/your ramrod as if you were loading. This will give you an idea of what 30lbs +/- feels like. Some folks may use 20lbs and some may use 40. Consistacy is the key here whatever you use.

 

[HunterB4]

I like to pack it pretty tight too. BH seems to like that more than the others.

 

[Underclocked]

I just one-hand the load down on the powder firmly - nothing special. Seems to work plenty well.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Honestly I've never not seated a projectile tight on the propellant and never had a problem with consistent accuracy. Every one of my past Encores and the Pro Hunter are more accurate than the shooter. BH209 ignites and shoots better with a bullet seated hard.

To load a bullet/sabot down my Pro Hunter barrel, it takes 32# of force. This is not seating the bullet but, the force required to move the sabot/bullet down the barrel.

I seat the sabot/bullet with a seating force of 105# (+/- 5#). I get consistent accuracy and much better than my old eyes are capable of on some days.

You can guess with bathroom scales but, its actually a WAG. Find someone with precision equipment for accurate force measurements. Leave the bathroom scales to the wife......

 

[bob g]

an update

i got the damn flame channel cleaned out!
what a chore, no way you could twist an eighth inch bit into it by hand!

i finally clamped the bit in a vise, and went at it
that carbon was like glass! harder than the back of my head, and that is damned hard.

found an old 1/4 inch chuck from and old drill
put the bit in there, so that i can manage to turn the bit in the field. put it in my shooters kit/box

i am thinking maybe if i clean it after each shooting, maybe the carbon will not fossilize to being so hard to remove?

is that the experience of others?

btw, went to cabela's in wichita ks, (closest to me) and bought more sabot's , they can get those
which is nice... they finally got more triple 7 and even though it is expensive i bought a couple of new bottles, however that is about as much fun that i could have there... projectiles
are getting really scarce. all the 45caliber stuff over 200gr are gone! and they have no idea when more are coming in... i did find some 230gr round nose bulk packed 250rds for 41 bucks, and figure to use them for target shooting.

i really like 300 gr 45 cal hornady xtp, those
have proven to be very effective in this gun with 70gr of 777 at both 50 and 100-120 yds.

it gets depressing going to cabela's and seeing the shelves so bare! still no primers of any sort, no 22lr of any sort, and many other calibers in short supply. lots of folks coming in to see what is showing up, but few that find what they came for.

bob g

 

[GM54-120]

Try a Hex Shank Drill bit and put it in a nut driver handle or screw driver handle that uses interchangeable bits.

Like these

Put it in something like this