blackhorn 209 vs triple 7

[Muley Hunter]

If you clean it out after 10-12 shots it's easy to remove the carbon. You can just hold the drill and turn the BP until it spins free.

You had a hard time, because you waited way too long.

 

[bob g]

i am really liking this forum and its members

too many forums out there, populated by overblown arses that just make the whole experience miserable.

lots of solid experience here and even more helpful folks, a rare combination these days.

thanks a lot guys

bob g

 

[sabotloader]

bob g

I do not get real fancy... I just make a 'bit on a stick'

 

[bob g]

next update

took the rifle back to the range, loaded up 70gr
of b/h209 and a crushrib with 45cal 250 xtp
cci 209 primer

ignition was flawless, so this part of the problem is solved

still having issues wit accuracy, but quite frankly it was probably me and not the components my pain level was going over 6/10 and climbing so i just couldn't settle in and kept pulling the shots up and to the right.

that and i found the scope rail had loosened up a bit, so that surely doesn't help, along with a strong cold north wind.... it was just not a good day.

anyway, i switched back to triple 7 and a known good round, alone with known scope settings, and it was still off.

so it isn't the powder, its likely me and a less than agreeable day to be shooting.

fwiw
thanks guys
bob g

 

[ShawnT]

bobg,

You are definitely experiencing the "BH209 Learning curve". :wink:

I see they got you fixed up on the BP flash channel issue. That has bit a lot od first time BH shooters. Once bit you won't forgit it. :lol:

One question, what did you swab the bore with when shooting BH? I also swab between shots on the range with one of my rifles but it is sort of an odd one. I only use a DRY patch to swab the bore between shots. You also would be better served to go to a synthetic oil to treat the bore after cleaning, like Montana Exteme Bore conditioner. I use it even in one of my rifles that I only shoot Pyrodex in.

The Tar like substance you saw may well be a reaction between BH and what ever you use to swab/clean the bore with. Try a Dry patch if you want to swab. Also When you clean up at the end of a range session, first push a DRY patch all the way through, then use the solvent. You will find cleaning is much easier.

 

[ShawnT]

bobg,

You are definitely experiencing the "BH209 Learning curve". :wink:

I see they got you fixed up on the BP flash channel issue. That has bit a lot od first time BH shooters. Once bit you won't forgit it. :lol:

One question, what did you swab the bore with when shooting BH? I also swab between shots on the range with one of my rifles but it is sort of an odd one. I only use a DRY patch to swab the bore between shots. You also would be better served to go to a synthetic oil to treat the bore after cleaning, like Montana Exteme Bore conditioner. I use it even in one of my rifles that I only shoot Pyrodex in.

The Tar like substance you saw may well be a reaction between BH and what ever you use to swab/clean the bore with. Try a Dry patch if you want to swab. Also When you clean up at the end of a range session, first push a DRY patch all the way through, then use the solvent. You will find cleaning is much easier.

 

[Muley Hunter]

You will probably get better accuracy if you increase your load of BH. Somewhere around 100gr you'll find a sweet spot. A little more, or maybe a little less.

 

[AJ]

Whew, I was going to say you have something else going on. I have shot nothing but BH209 in my Omega and it goes bang instantly every time. As far as accuracy, I have no problem keeping 4" groups at 300 yards with 85.0 gr by weight (120 gr by volume) of BH209 and a 300 gr SST in a smooth black Harvester sabot. Very firm consistent seating pressure is the key to ignition and accuracy.

 

[bob g]

thanks for all the added help guys, i will keep it all in mind and see how it works out.

everyone seems to love this bh209 powder, so i have to assume it is something i am doing wrong.

if i could hold 4 inch groups at 300yds i would be thrilled!

but i got to get better consistency at 100 before i go there i suppose.

today i am going to start over at the foundation
that being a remount of the scope, and a complete cleaning of the rifle.

then back to the range at 50yds to zero the thing back in left to right, and then see where i am at.

another question,

this omega is the x5 model so it has the black plastic stock, the gun is so harsh firing being light and having that hollow stock, that there is no way i want to shoot over 100gr of any powder. sure it kicks, but that i can manage, its the transmission of the rather violent shock of ignition that apparently is transmitted through the stock through my cheek bone.. with ear plugs in (which i always use) i can actually hear the barrel ring when it is shot. its like a clanging sound, like a hammer on a pipe sort of thing... my cva wolf is much less harsh and i don't hear or feel this ring of the barrel.

i am thinking of filling the stock with blow foam, anyone done this? any advise if you have done so?

btw, i have a custom 54 hawken with curly maple stock, heavy barrel and all iron furniture
by comparison it is a dream to shoot, so much smoother than the omega. the only issue with it is it weighs twice what the omega weighs and i don't see me dragging it anywhere. i don't hear its barrel ringing and there is no harshness at all.

thanks
bob g

 

[AJ]

Mine is in a laminated wood stock that has been epoxy bedded from the recoil lug rearward. The barrel is free floated .035" and it shoots just fine. The plastic stock is a lot more flexible and it can be a beast to get a good bedding job done as the release agent the manufacturer used making the stock is in the plastic. I also recommend a larger gap around the barrel to float it. The flimsy plastic forend will flex when firing and the barrel can make contact defeating the free float, so a bigger gap is required.

To tame the recoil I went with a Limbsaver recoil pad. It cushioned the blow quite a bit. Filling the stock with expanding foam might work. I have not tried it. Not sure where it might ooze out of. I can't say I have paid much attention to barrel ringing. I am half deaf from a whole lot of shooting and I am concentrating on the crosshairs so I never noticed.

 

[ENCORE50A]

At times I shoot a lot, up to 4,000 rounds a year in years past. I use a Caldwell FCX rest, which is heavy enough by itself and don't add additional weight. Takes the bite out of recoil and I can shoot all day. Many don't like the Caldwell rests and will claim it will damage a rifle, but I haven't had any issues. Something to consider, it doesn't have to be the FCX rest...

My Pro Hunter will hold 1/4" groups at 100yds consistently if the shooter (me) has a good day, 3/4" at 150 and 2" at 200yds, which I consider my hunting limit. I shoot 75grs by WEIGHT of BH209, CCI209M primers and the Barnes 250gr TMZ bullet with the supplied sabot.

Keep plugging away at it and you'll dial it in.

 

[Omega45]

Since your starting over at 50yds strive for 3 shots touching just above the bullseye. Give 90gr by volume a try since you feel 100-110 is too much recoil. Wait 3-5 minutes between shots. BH209 will heat your barrel up quick. After shooting a 3 shot group go check the target and kill some time before shooting another group. I believe your shooting a 300gr XTP. Drop down to a 250 XTP, SST or 240 or 260gr Harvester PT Gold. The PT Golds can be bought in bulk on Harvester's website. Order 50-100 with 50-100 crush rib or smooth sabots. Better yet send Harvester an email and let them know what gun you have and you would like to try some samples of the PT Golds and smooth sabots for under 300gr bullets. They offer the PT Golds in 240, 260 and 300 grain.

Get the tightest group possible at 50yds to build your confidence knowing what you and the gun can do before going to 100yds.

Loading pressure was mentioned before. When the bullet/sabot reached the powder charge just lean with your weight onto the ramrod to compress. Do it the same way every load. After awhile it will become second nature.

 

[Busta]

bobg,

You are definitely experiencing the "BH209 Learning curve". :wink:

I see they got you fixed up on the BP flash channel issue. That has bit a lot od first time BH shooters. Once bit you won't forgit it. :lol:

One question, what did you swab the bore with when shooting BH? I also swab between shots on the range with one of my rifles but it is sort of an odd one. I only use a DRY patch to swab the bore between shots. You also would be better served to go to a synthetic oil to treat the bore after cleaning, like Montana Exteme Bore conditioner. I use it even in one of my rifles that I only shoot Pyrodex in.

The Tar like substance you saw may well be a reaction between BH and what ever you use to swab/clean the bore with. Try a Dry patch if you want to swab. Also When you clean up at the end of a range session, first push a DRY patch all the way through, then use the solvent. You will find cleaning is much easier.

Ditto!

 

[Underclocked]

If you have some of the good packing foam sometimes used to ship computer parts - usually gray in color - you can cut that up in small pieces and stuff them in the buttstock. You could even use the foam pieces to fix some weights in position if desired. Stuff it until you can stuff no more but don't allow it to push back too hard on the recoil pad (else you'll have a gap).

I've done this and it does a lot toward dampening sound transmission through or from the stock - but little to dampen recoil. I don't think the spray foam would do any better and is a whole lot messier to work with...

Adding a bit of weight or a Limbsaver pad would probably be your best bet on the recoil issue. Changing ring height might help as well so far as the position of your cheek on the stock.

It also sounds as if your rifle needs bedding.

 

[LarryBud]

I believe you have the Z5 model vs. the X5. I have one and really like it.

90-100 grains of BH 209 will do you well. I shoot the 300 grain Scorpion but others shoot just fine.

I did modify the stock for optimal performance. I filled the hollow butt with silicone caulk. It added some weight but really solidified the gun. I also floated the barrel by doing some minor sanding along the channel and placing a spacer in eqch of the two lug boxes. I cut a yogurt lid to size. The lift is probably .010 but that's all it took.

It's a very accurate and reliable rifle.

 

[ShawnT]

i am thinking of filling the stock with blow foam, anyone done this? any advise if you have done so?

I have done this to an expensive McMillan EDGE Benchrest stock. But I used the spray foam because In Benchrest you have to be concerned with "making Weight" in registered matches. It will deaden some of the ring to the hollow stock.

UC is correct. The stuff is messy and if you get it on the pretty side of the stock it can be a bear to clean off. IF you try it be sure to cover the stock with newspaper and tape it to the stock around the end next to the recoil pad to prevent it getting on the stock. Use the straw to get it down deep in the stock. I even taped a drinking straw over the straw that came with the can to get it all the way to the bottom near the wrist. Remember that stuff expands a lot so you might want to do it a little at a time and be sure you cover the floor incase it runs out. Then cut off the excess.

UC's idea of the packing foam is a good one, plus it would be easier to experiement with adding weights if you think you need some. If you can find a box that had a Molded foam INSERT IGNORE (not styrofoam) in it might be better. Our company used to "Foam fit" parts in boxes. They first put a plastic bag in the box and poured a certain amount of liquid foam in then layed the top of the bag over the foam and quickly layed the part on the foam and then repeated the process. This molded a top and bottom. It was usually grey and it pretty dense. It would really deaden a stock. This might be the same foam he is referring too.

 

[bob g]

went back out to the range today, started back at 50yds and couldn't even hit the paper, actually didn't even hit the 2' x 3' plywood !

so back to 25yds and found to be shooting low?
what the holy crap?

was shooting high and right, today low and left?

dialed the scope to pick up the rounds, and ran out of adjustment and still low about 2 inches!

so back to the shop to rework the scope mount
this is ridiculous.

btw, i removed the butt and found the end wide open. i expected to have to drill holes to inject foam, i had no idea this thing is like a megaphone! with a little piece of pink 1/8th inch foam folded up and tucked in there as an afterthought from the factory.... i stuffed it down deep and then put in a package of 54cal balls.. that added a bunch of weight! didn't like it at all
so i removed them and stuffed a rag in there. that helped a lot. i think i will get a can of the low expansion foam and do as suggested with taping and masking the stock and going slow with it, in stages. i think that will really help to quite the transmission of ignition, through my jaw and cheek bone.

working on reshimming the scope rail so that i can get the barrel up in relation to the scope.

fwiw, i did get the gun to fire 4 shot groups all almost into the same hole, this a 25yds. so it looks like the gun is ok, its all about the damn scope mount, at least till i get it shimmed and secured rigidly.

we are getting there, baby steps, baby steps...

bob g

 

[Muley Hunter]

I don't understand why it was shooting high before, and now you have to shim the mounts? Are you sure the scope is ok?

 

[bob g]

the scope mount is one of those t/c 2 piece rails
and separate rings, so there is lots of places to have little issues

then i bought a 6-18x 50mm bushnell and it was lacking about 20 thousands to clear the barrel
so i cut a shim out of a piece of that blow moulded plastic packaging to make the shim...

it worked for a time, however it was not the thing to do.

the other day i found the rail loose, so i retightened it, and didn't notice that the plastic shim was crushing, which makes things bad...

because the t/c mount and the omega holes are drilled so closely there is no way to move the scope back or forward more than about a quarter inch, the rings are only about 2inch apart center to center.

so any tiny issue with a plastic shim makes for several inches of elevation problems down range.

so i removed the shim, made one out of aluminum sheet and then worked some aluminum foil folded to add about 5 thousands of taper back to front, in order to pick the barrel up a touch and hopefully put the scope adustment so that i have more elevation up than down.

anyway, i am about 98% sure of the mount now, that is if i guessed the elevation correction toward more lift, and i am much more sure that it will stay tight now.

it was just odd as heck that this setup was holding zero and doing an excellent job out to 100-120 yds prior to the use of bh209...

now that i think about it, the bh209 runs hotter, and i bet it was this heat that softened my plastic shim! the mount screws are just about right over where the powder is fired, so there is more heat there than elsewhere along the barrel.

i fired enough of the bh209 to get the outlet end of the barrel noticeably hot.... i never checked the breach end, i bet it was much hotter there!

that makes sense to me!

lesson learned, don't use plastic for a scope rail shim!

thanks for asking about the scope, it is in answering the question that maybe i stumbled onto the problem and more importantly the cause and solution.

bob g

 

[Muley Hunter]

Maybe some offset rings would be a better solution. They'd give you more movement.