Breech plug question

[sabotloader]

Sorry Encore, we've gotten off your original question.

Those that have front face seals. Have you ever coated the front of your breech plug, install like normal and remove? A thin coat of Prussian blue works best, but a black magic marker will do - coat it good. You will see the amount of contact you have.

Correct and I have done that to almost all of my rifles... The real problem as Jeff pointed out is the barrel swells right at that joint and will allow gas to escape back onto the plug... But... if you have enough bearing surface all the way around the nose of the plug and shoulder in the barrel it will not swell enough to get wider than that bearing surface.

They used to make spray graphite and teflon, BPCR guy tried it years ago on PP bullets - but I don't think it improved their groups, but it was tried.
Has anyone ever tried either of these sprays on their breech plugs thread, you could probably also spray the thread in a break-open or Omega - but might be hard in a bolt gun.
This seems like it would certainly slick the threads up for removal and coat the threads to maybe fill some of the void space in the threads.

I have both and have used both - both of them apply a mixture that is to thin to stand up to the pressure. That is why I have gone to Tape.. The color of the tape used is dependent on how loos your plug might be as it goes in the barrel. I would prefer to use yellow tape on the over the nose application of tape but yellow is to thick to screw in and not tear in my applications. Pink would be the next best but right now I only have a few rifles that pink will screw into. So white the thinnest tape is the tape I use in most application.

If I could use a thicker tape over the nose I would have that much better of seal between the nose of the plug and the shoulder in the barrel...

 

[sabotloader]

Encore, I agree with 52 bore we have drifted from your original post, but you sure helped bring a lot of information to black and white.

 

[Busta]

Finger torque. No torque wrench required.

Neither was the Teflon tape or o-ring that I added. This was after my first range session, not knowing what to expect.

Just a dab of oil on the threads will do ya!

No tape, grease, anti-seize, or torque wrench required on a finger removable breech plug. :yeah:

 

[JStanley]

If I could use a thicker tape over the nose I would have that much better of seal between the nose of the plug and the shoulder in the barrel...

Wonder if you could "duplex" your tape job? Pink or yellow over the nose and wrapped up the threads with white...
Something like this.

 

[sabotloader]

If I could use a thicker tape over the nose I would have that much better of seal between the nose of the plug and the shoulder in the barrel...

Wonder if you could "duplex" your tape job? Pink or yellow over the nose and wrapped up the threads with white...
Something like this.

That just might work might have to try it but I would prefer to use one tape with a constant wrap.... but now that you show that pic I wonder if I even really need to wrap it all the way down... What you have done with the pink - might solve the problem period. I'll have to try that this spring and see what happens...

 

[Grouse]

Jeff Hankins thinks a rear sealing breech plug is better. Im not doubting that at all. But he said the Savage front sealing plug leaks. Well I've owned several savages including HB#58, a few stainless and one or two blued ones. None of those guns had any blow back what so ever at all. I will say i only shot book loads. He seems to shoot nothing but high pressure loads so maybe that's what he means?

 

[Grouse]

The T/C strike is the only BP Inline ML I can think of that has a rear sealing breech plug. But it's not a breech plug, it more of a primer adapter or module that is unthreaded. It's bore diameter then slides in the barrel and a nut goes over it to hold it in place. I really like this design a lot. Gotta give T/C credit on this one.

 

[ronlaughlin]

No Sealing Breech Plug

Front Sealing Breach Plug

Rear Sealing Breech Plug

Perch Stealing Eagle

Every photo showed something that worked. None of the plugs allow blow back around the plug, so in a sense they are all 'sealing'. The eagle wasn't stealing, it was taking a gift.

Because i shoot Blackhorn, i don't have to sweat the small stuff. :wink:

 

[ENCORE50A]

Encore, I agree with 52 bore we have drifted from your original post, but you sure helped bring a lot of information to black and white.

Oh I'm afollo'n
There's so much talk about bullets, different rifles and sabots etc., when things like this come up, it puts the think'n hat on some. Not that I had a thing to do with starting it, but its sure made a lot of people think out of their "normal". :lol:
IMO tightness or torque can be measured with finger tighten breech plugs. If a plug stops, there's been some force exerted to stop it, that is if it butts up against something, otherwise its just insertion force. Even finger tightened plugs can be measured and give a value.

I think it was touched on earlier by someone but it appears we've been having to make up, at least to a point, for some engineering shortcomings. Now maybe these things were intentional by the engineers, but IMO we shouldn't have to wrap tape around any type breech plug for it to seal properly. I did like Jeff's video and I believe he hit the nail on the head about the threads.

I've had a couple different phone conversations with top notch gunsmiths, both very familiar with muzzleloaders and breech plugs. What I'm gathering from these conversations, the torque when mating up two flat surfaces with these breech plugs doesn't necessarily have to be 80ip like the RU. I mentioned the testing that Ron had performed and he had came up with an approximate 38ip, and was told by both that, that torque should be sufficient on these breech plugs with flat mating surfaces.

It would be great if someone or some engineer came up with a way, either through good engineering or a minimum, torque, that would stop blow back and stop seized breech plugs. Until then, I guess we'll all be "doctor'n em'up".

Keep up the breech plug conversations....... it'll get back to my original question.

 

[Squeeze]

I dont think the grease or teflon wrap's true purpose is to help sealing, Its more a release agent to aid removal.

 

[Busta]

Encore, I agree with 52 bore we have drifted from your original post, but you sure helped bring a lot of information to black and white.

Oh I'm afollo'n
There's so much talk about bullets, different rifles and sabots etc., when things like this come up, it puts the think'n hat on some. Not that I had a thing to do with starting it, but its sure made a lot of people think out of their "normal". :lol:
IMO tightness or torque can be measured with finger tighten breech plugs. If a plug stops, there's been some force exerted to stop it, that is if it butts up against something, otherwise its just insertion force. Even finger tightened plugs can be measured and give a value.

I think it was touched on earlier by someone but it appears we've been having to make up, at least to a point, for some engineering shortcomings. Now maybe these things were intentional by the engineers, but IMO we shouldn't have to wrap tape around any type breech plug for it to seal properly. I did like Jeff's video and I believe he hit the nail on the head about the threads.

I've had a couple different phone conversations with top notch gunsmiths, both very familiar with muzzleloaders and breech plugs. What I'm gathering from these conversations, the torque when mating up two flat surfaces with these breech plugs doesn't necessarily have to be 80ip like the RU. I mentioned the testing that Ron had performed and he had came up with an approximate 38ip, and was told by both that, that torque should be sufficient on these breech plugs with flat mating surfaces.

It would be great if someone or some engineer came up with a way, either through good engineering or a minimum, torque, that would stop blow back and stop seized breech plugs. Until then, I guess we'll all be "doctor'n em'up".

Keep up the breech plug conversations....... it'll get back to my original question.

They have. Some just fail to see it, or only see what they want to see. Until then, I guess they'll just keep their head in the sand!

 

[ENCORE50A]

Encore, I agree with 52 bore we have drifted from your original post, but you sure helped bring a lot of information to black and white.

Oh I'm afollo'n
There's so much talk about bullets, different rifles and sabots etc., when things like this come up, it puts the think'n hat on some. Not that I had a thing to do with starting it, but its sure made a lot of people think out of their "normal". :lol:
IMO tightness or torque can be measured with finger tighten breech plugs. If a plug stops, there's been some force exerted to stop it, that is if it butts up against something, otherwise its just insertion force. Even finger tightened plugs can be measured and give a value.

I think it was touched on earlier by someone but it appears we've been having to make up, at least to a point, for some engineering shortcomings. Now maybe these things were intentional by the engineers, but IMO we shouldn't have to wrap tape around any type breech plug for it to seal properly. I did like Jeff's video and I believe he hit the nail on the head about the threads.

I've had a couple different phone conversations with top notch gunsmiths, both very familiar with muzzleloaders and breech plugs. What I'm gathering from these conversations, the torque when mating up two flat surfaces with these breech plugs doesn't necessarily have to be 80ip like the RU. I mentioned the testing that Ron had performed and he had came up with an approximate 38ip, and was told by both that, that torque should be sufficient on these breech plugs with flat mating surfaces.

It would be great if someone or some engineer came up with a way, either through good engineering or a minimum, torque, that would stop blow back and stop seized breech plugs. Until then, I guess we'll all be "doctor'n em'up".

Keep up the breech plug conversations....... it'll get back to my original question.

They have. Some just fail to see it, or only see what they want to see. Until then, I guess they'll just keep their head in the sand!

Does that still include Teflon tape? What plug you referring to?

 

[Busta]

Oh I'm afollo'n
There's so much talk about bullets, different rifles and sabots etc., when things like this come up, it puts the think'n hat on some. Not that I had a thing to do with starting it, but its sure made a lot of people think out of their "normal". :lol:
IMO tightness or torque can be measured with finger tighten breech plugs. If a plug stops, there's been some force exerted to stop it, that is if it butts up against something, otherwise its just insertion force. Even finger tightened plugs can be measured and give a value.

I think it was touched on earlier by someone but it appears we've been having to make up, at least to a point, for some engineering shortcomings. Now maybe these things were intentional by the engineers, but IMO we shouldn't have to wrap tape around any type breech plug for it to seal properly. I did like Jeff's video and I believe he hit the nail on the head about the threads.

I've had a couple different phone conversations with top notch gunsmiths, both very familiar with muzzleloaders and breech plugs. What I'm gathering from these conversations, the torque when mating up two flat surfaces with these breech plugs doesn't necessarily have to be 80ip like the RU. I mentioned the testing that Ron had performed and he had came up with an approximate 38ip, and was told by both that, that torque should be sufficient on these breech plugs with flat mating surfaces.

It would be great if someone or some engineer came up with a way, either through good engineering or a minimum, torque, that would stop blow back and stop seized breech plugs. Until then, I guess we'll all be "doctor'n em'up".

Keep up the breech plug conversations....... it'll get back to my original question.

They have. Some just fail to see it, or only see what they want to see. Until then, I guess they'll just keep their head in the sand!

Does that still include Teflon tape? What plug you referring to?

Here was my earlier post. The breech plug was prepared for anything, anything that didn't happen in that first range session. No tape or o-ring required after that first range session. Just a little oil on the threads, just because it protects and lubricates like it does on the rest of your rifle. Had to reattach the pic.

Finger torque. No torque wrench required.

Neither was the Teflon tape or o-ring that I added. This was after my first range session, not knowing what to expect.

Just a dab of oil on the threads will do ya!

No tape, grease, anti-seize, or torque wrench required on a finger removable breech plug. :yeah:

 

[ENCORE50A]

Finger torque. No torque wrench required.

So its "torqued" but by fingers, which can be measured

Neither was the Teflon tape or o-ring that I added. This was after my first range session, not knowing what to expect.

Neither what? Sentence has me wondering? Were you trying to imply there was no blow back to the plug in the photo?

Just a dab of oil on the threads will do ya!

Where's the oil?

No tape, grease, anti-seize, or torque wrench required on a finger removable breech plug. :yeah:

Unless I'm wrong, that photo clearly shows pink tape?

Although the question clearly asked, "I'm asking those who DO NOT use any type of QR BP (finger type)", Have you taken off the "O" ring that you added, removed all that pink tape, used just oil and fired the breech plug 25 times then checked it?

 

[Squeeze]

Arrowhead SG and hankins are the only rear sealing I can think of. Im pretty sure even break actions are designed to be front sealing. Im not sure with the redemption (TC strike) design, But even that, has created a ripple effect of other design flaws. (Scope base mounting point, and eye relief issues)
grease, teflon, whatever we wrap the BP in is realistically just a release aid for later removal, and not expected to help blowback pressures. heat and pressure either burn it away, or push is back in the migration outward.

Im under the belief that a seal is created at the point of contact. Any great additional torque is pretty much moot, and actually just creates additional pressures and stresses on the threads, leading to galling, stress fracture, deformation etc. at the point of peak pressure, when the barrel expands. Its a pretty tricky dance to keep those pressures from migrating through the plug.
And I dont subscribe to the theory that a CVA plug is the end all design pinnacle. :wink:

 

[ENCORE50A]

Lets agree that this issue concerns ALL propellants, not a specific propellant......

Is it appearing that most plugs are front sealing, therefore at ignition there's no possible way for the flat sealing surfaces to completely seal because of barrel expansion? Meaning no reasonable amount of torque can eliminate blow back or sticking plugs?

If it is only necessary to use some sort of compound, rather grease or tape, because the plugs need these things only for easy removal and not to suppress blow back?

 

[Squeeze]

teflon MAY help blowback, but I think it wont stop anything extreme. Grease I dont think does much for blowback. it gets pushed as far back on the threads as residue can travel. burned or pushed as far as the pressures would travel without it. Think of what ~90 pounds of pressure does for a nail gun. Now multiply that up to the 25-50k pressures in a gun. And with the idea of expansion, due to peak pressure..
I also think a lot of guys only pop a very few shots on an average range day, so residue migration isnt as bad of an issue. I usually have to travel 45 mins to an hr+ to my range, and will usually shoot for a few hours (20+ shots) It always seems to me, the more shots, the dirtier things build. Outside of clearing the flash channel when necessary, Its rare I remove a BP at the range, or before a shooting session is over. Maybe once particles have gotten through, they hold the door open for more to flow?

 

[ENCORE50A]

.............. It always seems to me, the more shots, the dirtier things build........ Maybe once particles have gotten through, they hold the door open for more to flow?

Good question.
Speaking only of my own experience when shooting the Encore platform rifles, there was no significant blow back difference shooting 10 rounds or 50 rounds on the threads themselves. The RU or UF rifles have no issues with carbon in the flame channels, however have completely flat faced plugs and do not seal in the rear, yet the blow back doesn't reach the chamber area, indicating that with these two rifles systems, there must be a limit? With the Encore platform rifles, there also seemed to be a limit?

 

[ronlaughlin]

In this here plug, the blow back debris seems to make a seal, before the junk can penetrate all the way through the plug. The front threads get dirty, yes they do, Can't say for sure, but it may be, one could shoot a jillion shots, and the plug would never leak. Hence, it 'seals'. However, it may be very hard to remove.

An unsung advantage of Blackhorn......one can readily remove this plug in spite of most of the threads being covered with debris.

 

[Busta]

Finger torque. No torque wrench required.

So its "torqued" but by fingers, which can be measured

Neither was the Teflon tape or o-ring that I added. This was after my first range session, not knowing what to expect.

Neither what? Sentence has me wondering? Were you trying to imply there was no blow back to the plug in the photo?

Just a dab of oil on the threads will do ya!

Where's the oil?

No tape, grease, anti-seize, or torque wrench required on a finger removable breech plug. :yeah:

Unless I'm wrong, that photo clearly shows pink tape?

Although the question clearly asked, "I'm asking those who DO NOT use any type of QR BP (finger type)", Have you taken off the "O" ring that you added, removed all that pink tape, used just oil and fired the breech plug 25 times then checked it?

Over 25 times, yes. That was my point, I had the plug all "doctored up" for the first range session, and none of it was needed. Just a light coat of oil on the threads after that.

You actually can use the wrench on this breech plug if you wish. Not needed after initial installation, once the flange is married to the barrel. This is with Blackhorn 209 powder.