Breech plug question

[ENCORE50A]

Finger torque. No torque wrench required.
So its "torqued" but by fingers, which can be measured
Neither was the Teflon tape or o-ring that I added. This was after my first range session, not knowing what to expect.
Neither what? Sentence has me wondering? Were you trying to imply there was no blow back to the plug in the photo?
Just a dab of oil on the threads will do ya!
Where's the oil?
No tape, grease, anti-seize, or torque wrench required on a finger removable breech plug. :yeah:
Unless I'm wrong, that photo clearly shows pink tape?

Although the question clearly asked, "I'm asking those who DO NOT use any type of QR BP (finger type)", Have you taken off the "O" ring that you added, removed all that pink tape, used just oil and fired the breech plug 25 times then checked it?

Over 25 times, yes. That was my point, I had the plug all "doctored up" for the first range session, and none of it was needed. Just a light coat of oil on the threads after that.

You actually can use the wrench on this breech plug if you wish. Not needed after initial installation, once the flange is married to the barrel. This is with Blackhorn 209 powder.

I guess your explanation would have been much better then, had you not included the photo of a hand tightened breech plug covered in tape.

 

[Busta]

Arrowhead SG and hankins are the only rear sealing I can think of. Im pretty sure even break actions are designed to be front sealing. Im not sure with the redemption (TC strike) design, But even that, has created a ripple effect of other design flaws. (Scope base mounting point, and eye relief issues)
grease, teflon, whatever we wrap the BP in is realistically just a release aid for later removal, and not expected to help blowback pressures. heat and pressure either burn it away, or push is back in the migration outward.

Im under the belief that a seal is created at the point of contact. Any great additional torque is pretty much moot, and actually just creates additional pressures and stresses on the threads, leading to galling, stress fracture, deformation etc. at the point of peak pressure, when the barrel expands. Its a pretty tricky dance to keep those pressures from migrating through the plug.
And I dont subscribe to the theory that a CVA plug is the end all design pinnacle. :wink:

Never said that, if that is what you are implying? However, it is the best front sealing 209 primer breech plug design on a current production muzzleloader. Yes it could be improved but, what does that say about the others?

I have somewhere around 50 breech plugs I have tested Blackhorn 209 powder in. This includes OEM, modified OEM, Aftermarket, and several Custom breech plug designs. This was tested in close to 20 different muzzleloading rifles, pistols, and shotguns. Both mine and others.

The post 2010 CVA "Blackhorn" breech plug is the best sealing removable production plug I have tested. The Western Powders aftermarket replacement breech plug for the post 2010 CVA Accura MR, Accura V2, Optima V1/V2, Optima Pistol V1/V2, and Wolf is even better.

I'm pretty sure Melvin's NULA breech plug is also rear sealing. GM could tell you for sure.

 

[Grouse]

The post 2010 CVA "Blackhorn" breech plug is the best sealing removable production plug I have tested. The Western Powders aftermarket replacement breech plug for the post 2010 CVA Accura MR, Accura V2, Optima V1/V2, Optima Pistol V1/V2, and Wolf is even better.

I'm pretty sure Melvin's NULA breech plug is also rear sealing. GM could tell you for sure.

You just haven't tested to many plugs to make that statement. CVA actually sells a kit to eliminate blow back for the plug that your referring to. CVA is also the only ML out of the box you need to order a breech plug to shoot BH209 when comparing to Knight and T/C.

Drop that CVA plug on a cement floor one two or three times. Do the same to Knight and T/C plugs. You'll find out real quick you better have a back up plug for your CVA. The Knight and T/C plugs screw right back in.

CVA has made tremendous strides on there muzzleloaders. I actually love the MR. But the truth is, those breech plugs are soft and weak and pretty much junk. The design of the use of the tool less plug is great. Just very poorly designed for all powders and made of cheap soft metal. Mine was sent out to a forum member and added a ventliner to it. But that doesn't solve the very weak and soft outside construction.

The NULA does have a rear sealing breech plug.

 

[Busta]

Over 25 times, yes. That was my point, I had the plug all "doctored up" for the first range session, and none of it was needed. Just a light coat of oil on the threads after that.

You actually can use the wrench on this breech plug if you wish. Not needed after initial installation, once the flange is married to the barrel. This is with Blackhorn 209 powder.

I guess your explanation would have been much better then, had you not included the photo of a hand tightened breech plug covered in tape.

Maybe? It also shows that there was absolutely no damage to the tape after the range session was complete. I didn't wrap up on the flange because that is where this plug seals. I only wrapped the threads. With 99% of the other designs, that tape would be either melted, burnt, shredded, or all of the above.

I don't have the time to document every range session, I still have a full time job. I usually document first range sessions, and comparison testing. Lately, I just enjoy the shooting, when there is time for it.

This type of breech plug leaves more time for shooting, and less time cleaning. Not only the plug but, the rest of the rifle as well. It keeps 99% if the fouling in the barrel and the plug, as long as your primers don't leak between the primer cup and battery cup.

I hope someone comes up with a better design. Until then, I'll keep the tape, grease, and anti-seize in the range box for the other designs.

 

[chaded]

The post 2010 CVA "Blackhorn" breech plug is the best sealing removable production plug I have tested. The Western Powders aftermarket replacement breech plug for the post 2010 CVA Accura MR, Accura V2, Optima V1/V2, Optima Pistol V1/V2, and Wolf is even better.

I'm pretty sure Melvin's NULA breech plug is also rear sealing. GM could tell you for sure.

You just haven't tested to many plugs to make that statement. CVA actually sells a kit to eliminate blow back for the plug that your referring to. CVA is also the only ML out of the box you need to order a breech plug to shoot BH209 when comparing to Knight and T/C.

Drop that CVA plug on a cement floor one two or three times. Do the same to Knight and T/C plugs. You'll find out real quick you better have a back up plug for your CVA. The Knight and T/C plugs screw right back in.

CVA has made tremendous strides on there muzzleloaders. I actually love the MR. But the truth is, those breech plugs are soft and weak and pretty much junk. The design of the use of the tool less plug is great. Just very poorly designed for all powders and made of cheap soft metal. Mine was sent out to a forum member and added a ventliner to it. But that doesn't solve the very weak and soft outside construction.

The NULA does have a rear sealing breech plug.

Maybe Lehigh can start making cva plugs with removable vent.

 

[Busta]

The post 2010 CVA "Blackhorn" breech plug is the best sealing removable production plug I have tested. The Western Powders aftermarket replacement breech plug for the post 2010 CVA Accura MR, Accura V2, Optima V1/V2, Optima Pistol V1/V2, and Wolf is even better.

I'm pretty sure Melvin's NULA breech plug is also rear sealing. GM could tell you for sure.

You just haven't tested to many plugs to make that statement. CVA actually sells a kit to eliminate blow back for the plug that your referring to. CVA is also the only ML out of the box you need to order a breech plug to shoot BH209 when comparing to Knight and T/C.

Drop that CVA plug on a cement floor one two or three times. Do the same to Knight and T/C plugs. You'll find out real quick you better have a back up plug for your CVA. The Knight and T/C plugs screw right back in.

CVA has made tremendous strides on there muzzleloaders. I actually love the MR. But the truth is, those breech plugs are soft and weak and pretty much junk. The design of the use of the tool less plug is great. Just very poorly designed for all powders and made of cheap soft metal. Mine was sent out to a forum member and added a ventliner to it. But that doesn't solve the very weak and soft outside construction.

The NULA does have a rear sealing breech plug.

Maybe Lehigh can start making cva plugs with removable vent.

You do realise that he took that quote out of context? I would expect nothing less.

If they do, I hope they use a different advisor. Or there will be a Version 2 breech plug just like in the Lehigh Knight breech plug, because somebody doesn't know how to measure.

Most people aren't clumsy enough to drop a breech plug 2 or 3 times. Maybe they shouldn't be playing with propellants? Just sayin'!

LMBHPB Syndrome at its finest.

 

[chaded]

I've never had any issues with any of the cva plugs and i have had several. Im just saying that if one feels the gun is great other than the metal used for the plug then that could probably be changed. It wouldnt hurt to have another option i guess either.

* also, do you check your pms busta? :mrgreen:

 

[Busta]

I've never had any issues with any of the cva plugs and i have had several. Im just saying that if one feels the gun is great other than the metal used for the plug then that could probably be changed. It wouldnt hurt to have another option i guess either.

* also, do you check your pms busta? :mrgreen:

Funny! First, they have to know what they are talking about. There already is another QRBP option from Western Powders for all the CVA rifles and pistols that take one, except for the Apex.

 

[Grouse]

Busta,
You can talk all the negative stuff you want. Just provide accurate information which you are not. I also have the western powders breech plug and it's just as cheap as the CVA plug. As a matter of fact, nobody should even buy the western powders plug. Your much better off having the CVA plug that comes with your gun modified and it's cheaper and better done by Ronlaughlin for example. But you would need to go to the range more then once with a ML to know this.

As far as measuring you have absolutely NO clue what your talking about again. There is such a wide variety of tolerances in the old Knight Rifles that you could not get every gun perfect. That's why many people were involved with version 2 which in a lot of guns still need shimmed to make 99% blow back free. But again you would need to spend a lot more time at the range with a wide variety of makes to know this.

 

[sabotloader]

I would suggest that the current dialog in the last few posts need to be cooled! And written with some thought and care...

part of the management of this site.

 

[52Bore]

Encore:
Back to your topic and other thoughts on breech plugs - thinking today - which may be scary..
1- I can take my breech plug in/out 1000 times, each time requiring the same about of torque to remove as installed - providing I don't shoot.
2- Many have said they use teflon tape to assist with removing, one showed a photo on the front, middle, real to make his point. I've tried it, but sometimes some of it seems to come off when installing, so I get paranoid that it will not be up front on the first 1/3 of threads or so - next time out, I'll try wrapping around the front.
3- Thinking of a Plumber - he uses it to seal off air, water & gas molecules from escaping on TAPERED threads. I think this is where ML is with tape. Tapered threads would certainly be interesting in a ML - probably not practice over time. But, you certainly could torque this to see who it seals!
4- Rear sealing - understand what's been stated - but, I still don't get it. But, since I'm in the minority with Black - I think if you can't stop black fouling, then this may be only working because of the base powder.
Thanks to all for sharing.

 

[sabotloader]

Encore:
Back to your topic and other thoughts on breech plugs - thinking today - which may be scary..
1- I can take my breech plug in/out 1000 times, each time requiring the same about of torque to remove as installed - providing I don't shoot.

And I would tell you I can do about the same thing with my BP's after shooting a range session and I do not even try at the range by the time I get home and the whole barrel has cooled it should make it even tougher to remove. But with my taping it comes right out.

2- Many have said they use teflon tape to assist with removing, one showed a photo on the front, middle, real to make his point. I've tried it, but sometimes some of it seems to come off when installing, so I get paranoid that it will not be up front on the first 1/3 of threads or so - next time out, I'll try wrapping around the front.

If you are using or intend to use tape on your BP there are a couple of thing you have to do...

1. The threads in the breech must be clean and free of old tape or carbon.
2. The BP shelf in the bore needs to be clean also free of any debris.
3. The threads on the BP must be clean and I like them free of any oils or greases which can dissolve the tape.
4. Wrap the tape on the BP in the correct direction.
5. After being wrapped turn the plug between your fingers compacting the tape into the threads.
6. Install the BP slowly - do not speed turn it in. While installing feel it go in if it snags then something is not clean.
7. When the plug reaches bottom - run it up snug squeezing the tape between the nose of the BP and the shoulder in the barrel.

This may sound like a lot of work - but once you have down it a few times it really just becomes another part of cleaning. And it certainly is not difficult or I would not do it...

3- Thinking of a Plumber - he uses it to seal off air, water & gas molecules from escaping on TAPERED threads. I think this is where ML is with tape. Tapered threads would certainly be interesting in a ML - probably not practice over time. But, you certainly could torque this to see who it seals!
4- Rear sealing - understand what's been stated - but, I still don't get it. But, since I'm in the minority with Black - I think if you can't stop black fouling, then this may be only working because of the base powder.
Thanks to all for sharing.

I think I am with you on this one - rear sealing could really be good on a rifle shooting smokeless or BH but I am thinking a portion of the BP threads are going to get awful dirty... which again is not a real big deal you have to clean it anyway...

This plug was removed from my Knight DISC Extreme after a range session. Most of the tape on the ML stayed in the threads in the barrel. The purpose of the picture - I think I achieved a front seal look how clean the darn BP is, even the nose of the plug shows no real sign of blowback... Looking at the outside of the plug you would not really suspect this plug had been shot an entire range session shooting 120 grs. of T7-2f.

 

[ENCORE50A]

...

This plug was removed from my Knight DISC Extreme after a range session. Most of the tape on the ML stayed in the threads in the barrel. The purpose of the picture - I think I achieved a front seal look how clean the darn BP is, even the nose of the plug shows no real sign of blowback... Looking at the outside of the plug you would not really suspect this plug had been shot an entire range session shooting 120 grs. of T7-2f.
[/color]

That plug looks excellent for shooting T7. How tight with that tape do you tighten it to seal it to the shoulder?

 

[bestill]

The last several Muzzleloaders i have messed with have been fitted with arrowhead rear sealing plugs. And for me they work great.
I typically clean everything and put one wrap of Teflon tape on plug and then couple drops of gun oil on tape at about3rd thread from chamber end and install snug with1/4 drive ratchet with2" handle .

After70 shots yesterday shooting blackhorn with absolutely no breech maintenance it removed with literally same force as was installed.
The first 3-4 threads were blacked from carbon residue which ive found consistent as how far flow travels up thread..
I can't say how blackpowder would do but i feel results would be the same for removal.

Traditions and Remington genesis used a rear sealing plug while guns didn't sell great but there plugs did seal breech threads and removal was very easy..

One big key for building with rear sealing plug its by far easier to cut a perfect sealing surface in barrel seating surface at the rear than down in the barrel with a very small boring bar extended out 2" plus.
Another bonus is can use 9/16 thread which in small contour Barrel increases wall thickness say example .562 thread and 1.000 barrel omega
.219 wall
Front seal plug 11/16 thread
.687 1.000 barrel wall thickness. .157 wall.

Just some thoughts.

 

[JStanley]

One big key for building with rear sealing plug its by far easier to cut a perfect sealing surface in barrel seating surface at the rear than down in the barrel with a very small boring bar extended out 2" plus.

I can testify to this for sure. I rebuilt an older Traditions with a GM barrel, cutting all the inner and outer threads and the shelf was by far the hardest part to get right. :shock:

 

[sabotloader]

Be Still - which Remington used a rear sealing plug?

Shooting BH with a rear sealing BP is not a problem -and I believe it would not be a problem with smokeless, but I am really skeptical with the use of T7.

Have you shot a range session with T7 and a rear seling BP? Or do you know of anyone that has?

 

[ronlaughlin]

Well, i cannot testify anything about cutting the shelf nor the threads, but if you boys have the experience to know that the job is easier cutting for the rear sealing plug, it seems to me, that is the way to proceed.

Somehow, the flame 'knows' not to cut the front threads, even though they aren't protected. Somehow the rear seal, tells the flame, not to go any further, and it doesn't do any damage to the front plug threads, or the barrel threads.

Obviously, since the rear seal is easiest to make, and because it works the best, it should be pursued.





Mike, it seems to me you can assuage your worry, by simply doing as bestill describes, and wrap the front threads with tape. Just treat the rear sealing plug as though it were front sealing.

 

[sabotloader]

Well, i cannot testify anything about cutting the shelf nor the threads, but if you boys have the experience to know that the job is easier cutting for the rear sealing plug, it seems to me, that is the way to proceed.

Somehow, the flame 'knows' not to cut the front threads, even though they aren't protected. Somehow the rear seal, tells the flame, not to go any further, and it doesn't do any damage to the front plug threads, or the barrel threads.

Obviously, since the rear seal is easiest to make, and because it works the best, it should be pursued.





Mike, it seems to me you can assuage your worry, by simply doing as bestill describes, and wrap the front threads with tape. Just treat the rear sealing plug as though it were front sealing.

I have done that but not on purpose - I lost the tape on the front of the plug with the tape remaining on the rear of the plug and yes the plug seized.

Also I am sure if I just wrapped the front and tightened it again the shoulder in the barrel it would be fine also. I know for a fact if I wrap the plug insert it until it shoulders and then back it off a 1/4 turn - it does and will seize given enough shots.

 

[bestill]

Be Still - which Remington used a rear sealing plug?

Shooting BH with a rear sealing BP is not a problem -and I believe it would not be a problem with smokeless, but I am really skeptical with the use of T7.

Have you shot a range session with T7 and a rear seling BP? Or do you know of anyone that has?

Remington genesis which used same plug as traditions used with rear seal.

I used a Remington genesis alot several years ago with blackpowder and triple seven with no breech seizures.

 

[52Bore]

One big key for building with rear sealing plug its by far easier to cut a perfect sealing surface in barrel seating surface at the rear than down in the barrel with a very small boring bar extended out 2" plus.

I agree, and the 2" is not even 1/2 the 5" deep Knight action. After the first one, I then used a piloted counterbore @ tap drill diameter to clean up the bottom.