Breech plug question

[52Bore]

Sabotloader, Thanks for the description. I will try that next time. I don't have any issue with Black until a full shooting - like 8 hrs and 30-50 shots. This is common at Friendship.

 

[sabotloader]

Be Still - which Remington used a rear sealing plug?

Shooting BH with a rear sealing BP is not a problem -and I believe it would not be a problem with smokeless, but I am really skeptical with the use of T7.

Have you shot a range session with T7 and a rear seling BP? Or do you know of anyone that has?

Remington genesis which used same plug as traditions used with rear seal.

I used a Remington genesis alot several years ago with blackpowder and triple seven with no breech seizures.

Forgot about the Genesis!

Your last information is really good to hear..

My next question as brought forth by Jeff Hankins - will mass produced muzzleloaders get to the point where tolerances would allow a snug fitting rear sealed BP? Tight fitting - I mean Jeff mentioned that his plugs threads fit tightly snugly in the breech threads. I understand how you custom builder accomplish it but I am wondering in mass production could/would that happen?

 

[Grouse]

I'm not sure with a good quality and consistent barrel you couldn't have both a front and rear sealing breech plug???? Might need an o ring like on the Strike at the rear sealing point but I think in a lot of ways this would be better for all powders.

 

[WTM45]

My next question as brought forth by Jeff Hankins - will mass produced muzzleloaders get to the point where tolerances would allow a snug fitting rear sealed BP? Tight fitting - I mean Jeff mentioned that his plugs threads fit tightly snugly in the breech threads. I understand how you custom builder accomplish it but I am wondering in mass production could/would that happen?

Sure it could. It would require additional QC steps, a little more hand fitting and an increase to costs per unit.

The "stuck" plug complaints from end users would go through the roof! Customer Service phone volumes would increase, the complaints increase and bad publicity follows.

I'm thinking there simply has to be some "play" in an item that is so dependent on user maintenance.

 

[WTM45]

There is a point of diminishing returns in breech plug manufacture. It is considered an expendable. So design follows that cost spec. Too expensive, they will not sell individually. Too expensive, the entire system/rifle will not sell.

 

[ENCORE50A]

A couple observations........... First, I expected the post to start out like it did. Second, I knew few if any would know how tight they actually seated their breech plugs. Third, I'm certainly glad I asked the question, as it has some people thinking "outside the box". Sure beats the constant bickering of some posts.

During my working career I've seen some things engineered that just astonished me. It may have taken a couple times to get it "absolute" but, things that most would never imagine. I asked for so many "firsts" from these engineers and although there was an initial investment, the investment paid for itself 100's or more times and are still saving money. These GM engineers created things for me that today are taken for granted, but used by every automaker on the planet now. That said, someone needs to engineer the right breech plug. One that seals and removes without sticking, WITHOUT tape, or other special products and is USER FRIENDLY. Now breech plug grease I understand, or maybe even anti-seize. It just hasn't been invented yet. However without people "thinking outside the box", it'll likely never happen.

fivebull, who may no longer be a member, once told me that 'muzzleloader companies give shooters what they wanted them to have. Not what the shooters actually want.' It was just one of the reasons he asked for more hunters to shoot the in-line matches and hopefully to get the manufacturers to show up and to listen to a group of shooters. Well that's a different subject I guess.........

At one time, the question was raised as to rather this post really needed to continue....... Thankfully, I see some who are thinking outside the box. YOU are the ones who may instigate changes in the future. I appreciate everyone who is thinking and continuing to discuss this, and... I am listening.

 

[Muley Hunter]

The CVA BP is sealed. When using BH 209 which is the most popular powder now. You don't need any anti-seize grease. You need no tape. You can keep the threads on the BP and barrel bone dry. I've taken 50 shots with bone dry threads to prove a point in the past. It was finger tight to install, and it was finger tight to remove. If that isn't a sealed BP I don't know what it.

No argument. Just a fact done by many who own CVA's. Maybe the BP is on the soft side to help it seal in the front.

 

[chaded]

When it comes to shooting blackhorn, (other than the strangeness that has been reported with the ultimate muzzleloader) I do not use tape or grease or anything. I have shot the TC Impact, TC Triumph, Knight, various CVA's without using grease or tape without any issues whatsoever. It screws out just as easy as it screwed in. This is NOT something that is exclusive to a CVA plug with shooting blackhorn209.

 

[Grouse]

The CVA BP is sealed. When using BH 209 which is the most popular powder now. You don't need any anti-seize grease. You need no tape. You can keep the threads on the BP and barrel bone dry. I've taken 50 shots with bone dry threads to prove a point in the past. It was finger tight to install, and it was finger tight to remove. If that isn't a sealed BP I don't know what it.

No argument. Just a fact done by many who own CVA's. Maybe the BP is on the soft side to help it seal in the front.

The breech plug threads on the Accura MR stay pretty clean. But the plug leaks around the primer and gets the firing pin and action dirty. Mine is actually pretty good but far from perfect with Winchester primers.

 

[Muley Hunter]

chad..........Of course not, but it's the one I have experience with.

 

[Muley Hunter]

The CVA BP is sealed. When using BH 209 which is the most popular powder now. You don't need any anti-seize grease. You need no tape. You can keep the threads on the BP and barrel bone dry. I've taken 50 shots with bone dry threads to prove a point in the past. It was finger tight to install, and it was finger tight to remove. If that isn't a sealed BP I don't know what it.

No argument. Just a fact done by many who own CVA's. Maybe the BP is on the soft side to help it seal in the front.

The breech plug threads on the Accura MR stay pretty clean. But the plug leaks around the primer and gets the firing pin and action dirty. Mine is actually pretty good but far from perfect with Winchester primers.

Headspace needs to be set tighter.

 

[sabotloader]

BarnesAddict

I know this was requested way back in the thread, but I was getting ready to head to the Rock Pit this morning and thought I could/would/should take the opportunity to check mine. I will recheck later today after I clean and re-install.

It appears that I am just under 50 inch pounds... And remember I normally use a socket ratchet system and SWAG (feel) tightening system

 

[ENCORE50A]

BarnesAddict

I know this was requested way back in the thread, but I was getting ready to head to the Rock Pit this morning and thought I could/would/should take the opportunity to check mine. I will recheck later today after I clean and re-install.

It appears that I am just under 50 inch pounds... And remember I normally use a socket ratchet system and SWAG (feel) tightening system

Thank you! That's exactly what the question was intended for. Be interesting how it removes. Will you check the force to remove?

Once the weather goes one way or another, I'll be checking mine out after torqueing to 65ip, which I and two very competent smiths agree is tight. Started earlier today to blow the snow to the bench so I could shoot. Somehow and for some reason, the blower wouldn't even turn over. Had to take off the recoil and move the crank with a socket. After that it turned over and ran fine. I got the snow blew out to the bench, then it started raining. One of these days.....

 

[ENCORE50A]

The CVA BP is sealed. When using BH 209 which is the most popular powder now. You don't need any anti-seize grease. You need no tape. You can keep the threads on the BP and barrel bone dry. I've taken 50 shots with bone dry threads to prove a point in the past. It was finger tight to install, and it was finger tight to remove. If that isn't a sealed BP I don't know what it.

No argument. Just a fact done by many who own CVA's. Maybe the BP is on the soft side to help it seal in the front.

When you get out amongst the world, trust me, BH209 is not the most popular propellant. BH won't be the only propellant used, ever. So all propellants MUST be considered.

 

[Muley Hunter]

I've also shot Goex, and the BP came right out. I know this isn't the question, because it's a finger tight BP. I was just commenting on the fact that sealed BP's are made now. I think any BP that needs a wrench isn't sealed.

What do you consider getting out in the world? Friendship?

 

[ENCORE50A]

.................. What do you consider getting out in the world? Friendship?

Muley :nono: I'm not going there with you. Its not worth my time when others are researching and providing such valuable information. Friendship has absolutely nothing to do with original question, nor do your answers, yet. It does beg the question though, do you have some kind of issue with Friendship? If so, please start your own post about it. It has no issue here......

Would you PLEASE.......... go back and read the very first post again. It specifically asks:

Don't need to know what BP is better than the other............

I'm asking those who DO NOT use any type of QR BP (finger type).

Has anyone ever actually checked the torque when you tighten your breech plug?


If you have some engineering information, I'm willing to listen

 

[ronlaughlin]

Continuing on with the research, this morning the breech plug was installed into the Omega using the torque driver, instead of the 1/4" ratchet. The plug had a drop of oil on the threads is all. NO tape, or anti-seize grease was used. The Driver was set to a torque of 30 inch pound, and the plug was tightened at that torque. Wanted to see how much torque it would take to remove the plug, and also, how far the blow by junk, would migrate through the threads. A high pressure load was desired; powder charge was 110g Blackhorn, and the bullet was 300g XTP.

The photo reveal the carbon made it near half way through the threads, so is this a middle seal plug?? When i went to remove the plug, the torque setting on the driver, was left the same as it was when the plug was installed. What i figured to do, was to gradually increase the torque setting, until the plug broke loose. Imagine my surprise, when the 30 inch pound torque broke the plug free, and it was removed from the rifle.

Oops, forgot to say that 11 shots were made.

 

[Squeeze]

that follows the theory of a rear sealing plug. The pressures DO migrate up the threads, right up untill they push the amosphere above them to a pressure match. this air that existed in the threads WILL give and compress to a point the competing pressure pushes. Then, at some point, compression matches and rebound occurs. It does migrate upward under pressure, but stops when backpressure compression equalizes.. I know Im not explaining it well..
the air in the threads gets compressed, but is still held by the rear seal.

 

[sabotloader]

ronlaughlin

Shooting BH I would expect about what you have found. It is interesting to me that the carbon worked about hallway up the plug. I would not really call it a middle seal - not sure it was sealed at all. As the carbon worked up the barrel you are going to find the journey would be halted by the bullet leaving the barrel and creating a negative pressure in the barrel sucking things the other direction.

I would venture to say if you were shooting T7 with the same setup - at some point the plug would seize.

 

[sabotloader]

The CVA BP is sealed. When using BH 209 which is the most popular powder now. You don't need any anti-seize grease. You need no tape. You can keep the threads on the BP and barrel bone dry. I've taken 50 shots with bone dry threads to prove a point in the past. It was finger tight to install, and it was finger tight to remove. If that isn't a sealed BP I don't know what it.

No argument. Just a fact done by many who own CVA's. Maybe the BP is on the soft side to help it seal in the front.

When you get out amongst the world, trust me, BH209 is not the most popular propellant. BH won't be the only propellant used, ever. So all propellants MUST be considered.

That is not correct Muley... Regular BP outsells all other powders combined. Subs are way down the list and according to Powder Valley - BH does not lead the list of subs sold. Of all things the Pryo's are/were the leading sub sold.

On the net last year someplace I found a posting by Powder Valley of inventory sold for 2013 - I can not find it now... but then again that is only one source of Black Powder sales although they do a large volume of the sales...