Twist rate and bullet length

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OK now I have a question. I ran 2 different bullets through the above calculators and I came up with numbers of 4.6 and 6.3. According to this calculation my bullet is over stabilized! What does that mean and how does it effect accuracy?
 
There is an interesting entry on the Pedersoli site buried in the blog entry about one of their rifles. The last sentence is relevant:

"The rifling twist of Pedersoli's .50 CALIBER RB-ML RIFLE bore is a snappy 1-in-24 twist ... while every other production run in-line .50 caliber rifle comes with a 1-in-28 rifling twist. So ... What Makes The 1-in-24 Twist So Advanced? At this point, let's just say that it has long been my contention that we've "outgrown" the 1-in-28 rifling twist. William "Tony" Knight and I came up with that twist back when both the "ultra modern" in-line rifles and saboted bullet concepts were just getting off the ground, during the mid to late 1980's. Ever since, the 1-in-28 twist has become the in-line rifle "Industry Standard" - a standard that was entirely based on stabilizing fairly short .44 and .45 caliber handgun bullets ... using a plastic sabot ... out of a .50 caliber bore."
1-24 twist or faster is standard twist for a 50 , shooting heavier bullets , say in rifles such as Sharps or the old Buffalo guns , nothing new about it
 
Only considering 45cal..............

There's an awful lot involved in LONG RANGE shooting, especially 1,000yds. To my knowledge, there's only 4 of us on this site shooting MODERN INLINES to 1,000yds. Quite frankly, all 4 of us are still learning.
The potential problems with a 1:20, even shooting a great bullet for that twist rate, would be yes, length and its BC. Heavier and longer bullets are the rule. 275gr and 300gr bullets are very poor choices for shooting 1,000yds. Bullets of at least 325grs with very high BC's, even better at 350grs, work well at 1,000yds out of a 1:19 twist and the 1:18's.
Propellant charges in competitions is limited to 120grs VOLUME of BH209, giving approximate velocities of around 2,180fps +/-. Bullets will go sub-sonic at approximately 800yds.

This Arrowhead 350gr XLD has won 2 of the 3 long range matches of 800, 900 and 1,000yds.

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Although a quality bullet, the Pittman Accumax 275gr bullet, it is not a LONG range bullet and wouldn't be used in competition.

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This is a Fury 300gr. It is an outstanding hunting bullet but, it doesn't stabilize well beyond 400yds.


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In twist of 1-17 had no problem shooting 350 XLD , won the 5 at 1000 with it at Camp Atterbury. Anything slower than 20 twist doesn't work well at 1000. In a original or reproduction traditional muzzle loader , most used PP bullets in 530 grain or better , don't let anyone tell you different
 
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I'm assuming that was a 45 Cal ,as much as I love the 18 I'm convinced that the absolute Apex perfect twist is most likely 17 or 17.5 however I only shoot bullets with jackets I know that big lead is a little different, what amazes me is how well these faster twist barrels do with lighter bullets also.
 
OK now I have a question. I ran 2 different bullets through the above calculators and I came up with numbers of 4.6 and 6.3. According to this calculation my bullet is over stabilized! What does that mean and how does it effect accuracy?
Now that's a heavy question, bronco. In prior times, a lot of concern was given to a bullet being "over stabilized", meaning spun faster than it really needed to be. This has not proven to be much of a problem, to my knowledge. The old Greenhill formula for twist rate and thus bullet stabilization has not held up well over the years as bullets got better and better and also slimmer, and longer.
It can get very complicated because as a fired bullet slows and nears the sonic barrier, the speed of sound at a bit over 1100 fps depending on altitude and other factors, it becomes most stable.
Let's look at some examples: Pedersoli built its .45 Mortimer-Whitworth competition ML rifles with a 1:20.7 twist rate (call it 21, as many do) because it was designed specifically to shoot a long-shank, multi-groove lubed bullet with moderate ogive (nose curve) plus moderate meplat (flat) front for international competition at 100 meters. The bullet is 500 grains wt., .449 D. and 1.24" long. No doubt Pedersoli was aiming for it to be shot very close to the speed of sound or possibly exceed this a bit, but be slowing to almost the speed of sound as it reached 100 meters. What you don't want is for the bullet to be yawing a bit as it becomes somewhat unstable passing thru the sound barrier. For a large and relatively low B.C. bullet like a muzzleloader's often still are, if you want great accuracy at 100 yds. (or 110 yds., which is 100 meters) shoot it below the speed of sound, but not by much.
Now let's look at your "over stabilized" bullet. For a ML like the Pedersoli above, the shorter 500 gr.bullet is perfect for 100 meters, and works pretty well for 200 too. But for long range, like 600-1000 yards, you need a longer bullet of same .45 cal. (considered best cal. for this by many) and this requires more spin. Bullet is again .449 D. but now is about 545 gr. and about 1.4" long as I recall. So Pedersoli built the now-famous "Gibbs" which is just the Mortimer-Witworth with a 1:18 twist barrel instead of 1:21. That would "over spin" the shorter bullet for 100 meter shooting, but not by much. Nonetheless, these little things is what wins Gold Medals, and that's what Pedersoli is good at.
So you will likely find that your "overspin" is a lot better than "underspin" and that's why a .50 or .54 T/C Renegade at 1:48 twist will shoot RBs well (tho "overspun", since 1:72 twist would be better for RBs in those calbers, and is pretty good for bore-sized slugs or 45 bullets in sabots as a "compromise twist", tho 1:28 would be better with the usual velocities.
Lastly, to really cloud the picture. You can "underspin" or "overspin" your ML bullet with a given cal. and twist rate, depending on its length and also its velocity. If you have an "overspin" twist rate, just use less powder and bingo the rps (revolutions per second) at the muzzle will be less.
Give it more powder if you have an "underspin" twist rate and thus gain the rps provided more easily by a faster twist rate, to shoot even to 1000 yards if circumstances match up. That's how I could shoot my 1:21 twist Pedersoli Mortimer well to 1000 yds even tho I used the longer 545 gr. bullets. I simply used 107 gr. by wt. of Swiss 1.5F, instead of the usual 85-95 gr. That made for significant recoil, but spun my bullet like 1:18 twist does with the lesser charges. My higher-veocity bullet was leaving my muzzle at very close to the same rps as the bullets from 1:18 twist rifles!
Moral of the story: it is rps at the muzzle, not nominal twist rate, that determines whether the usual ML bullet will be and remain stable, especially at longer ranges, assuming a bullet of proper length is being used. Oh, how often I see bullet flight and accuracy discussion as if twist rate is what stablizes a bullet. No....velocity coupled with bullet length must be part of the equation. But notably, for MLs, B.C. (ballistic coefficient") is of little importance at 100 or 200 yds. (It's a different story when you get into modern muzzleloaders shooting at 2000-3000 fps and using narrower and long modern bullets in sabots. B.C. gets more and more important, especially at the ranges beyond 200 yds. or so.)
And here's a real mind-blower: bullets oscillate after suddenly leaving the muzzle, then "settle down" from this as they get farther from the muzzle. So they may be moderately accurate at 100 yds., yet be more accurate at 200!! I thought this was BS for along time, but Dr. Franklin Mann proved this back in 1902 by careful experiment. His book, "The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target is a marvel, and has been reprinted.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa
 
I'm assuming that was a 45 Cal ,as much as I love the 18 I'm convinced that the absolute Apex perfect twist is most likely 17 or 17.5 however I only shoot bullets with jackets I know that big lead is a little different, what amazes me is how well these faster twist barrels do with lighter bullets also.
In today's world, the jacketed bullets have become so much better that this is why faster twist barrels shoot even the lighter and shorter bullets very well. Our cast and perhaps swaged lead or lead-alloy bullets simply cannot be as perfect as these modern jacketed bullets, but oh can they do amazing things when all the possible variables have been carefully ironed out.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa
 
I'm assuming that was a 45 Cal ,as much as I love the 18 I'm convinced that the absolute Apex perfect twist is most likely 17 or 17.5 however I only shoot bullets with jackets I know that big lead is a little different, what amazes me is how well these faster twist barrels do with lighter bullets also.
Those lighter bullets won't be LONG RANGE bullets though at 600yds to 1,000yds.

What I think....... I'm witnessing shooting at 1,000yds and using JBM, is that it won't matter with either a 1:17.5 or a 1:19, unless you can keep modern jacketed bullets above the speed of sound to the target. Regardless of the twist, 45cal bullets being shot bullet to bore, and with a 120gr volume maximum charge, will go subsonic at 800yds. Lighter bullets go subsonic even faster.

The BP shooters and BPCR shooters, shooting really heavy lead, are not shooting above the speed of sound. They're dropping those heavy lead bullets in like mortars, but dang they are good at it.

With modern muzzleloaders, using modern jacketed bullets with a high BC, velocity can certainly be your friend. As the 45's out gunned the 50's, the 40's will outgun the 45's. Velocity and much higher BC's make a world of difference IMO.

Just asking................... has anyone ever shot 45cal with a 40cal bullet in a sabot to 1,000yds?
 
I have taken plastic to 500 yd many times I've never tried it any further I think that's a very interesting question I would love to see someone try the 250 Fury 40 cal or the 275 in a light blue at a thousand yards I'm just curious I realize there may be 40 cal bullets with higher BC's I've tried some of them in the light blue the pitman's for instance and they did not shoot well enough at 100 yards for me to take them out any further encore would you be willing to shoot some 40 Cals and a light blue if I send you the next time you're at the range ,shooting out to a thousand I'd love to see what your results are,, realizing of course that this is not the efficient means of going long distance I absolutely believe that sizing for bore is, I'm just more interesting about the results and limits of plastic too. I've said this a lot I have found that the 18 twist 45 barrels do some phenomenal work with 40 cal bullets in a light blue and trying to make this point to a lot of people who aren't necessarily distant shooters the 18 twist 45 barrel gives you all of the 40 cal in a light blue potential you could ever ask for in a sense you have both a 45 Cal and a 40 cal Barrel it's not so much I would like to see plastic in a long distance match I'm more concerned about giving muzzleloading Shooters the absolute best and most versatile twist and bore that they could have I'm very interested in 40 cal at thousand yards for this purpose.
 
I realize that a lot of the really big lead guys are doing a lot of rainbow arcing and I know that's a phenomenal skill I am interested in jacketed bullets of course that's why I've been working on some 400 grain bullets and even some larger that are coming in the future I would love to see something larger than a 350 grain Sleek High BC bullet something in that between 400 and 500 grain with a thin jacket easily sizable in a high BC, and at the same time again I am convinced that a plastic load with a 250 or 275 grain 40 cal bullet could do some amazing things at long distance need some volunteers that have a thousand yard range to test I'm close to that where I live now once deer season is over or at least Muzzleloader season is over I will take the light blue from 500 on out to 1000 it might be a month or two I've been wondering this for a long time what are the limits of the light blue and a good 40 cal bullet in a 45 fast twist I don't know that I know those limits yet
 
One thing about the charges we're limited to, is that they would not be hard on a sabot. Light bullets just won't do at 1K. I can't be convinced of that, at least not without a ton of velocity. Lighter bullets go subsonic faster and any wind would be the enemy.
What I would like to see, is that light blue sabot and a 40cal high BC bullet, like a Parker or XLD in at least 300grs weight, shot with 120grs VOLUME of BH. Those bullets have BC's in the .500's+
I don't have a 1K range to practice, only to 600yds. I thought we'd have one within a hours drive, but after they started working on it, zoning became an issue and the project was dropped. :(
 
I see this information in a larger sense to be beneficial for even the average Joe that's shooting a break action 45 all of those new 45 Shooters out there that happened to have an 18 twist Barrel it helps them to understand it's full potential not trying to make long distance shooting a plastic thing
 
When mr Woodman gets my rifle back to me I hope to do what you want to see done Mark, with the fury bullets in the blue sabot at 800 and 1000yds. I have access to a private 800’yd range now but it’s an hour drive, but I hope to develop a 1000 yd range at a buddy’s ranch( and teach his kids a thing or two), that will be much closer to home. This will have value for many different rifles. When my rifle comes back I’ll be starting from the beginning, from 25 yd to 100 at my house first, with both Blackhorn and VVN120, then out to the mid ranges for deer. After that, the real long range for learning the capabilities. It’ll take time and I collaborate with Ninering and Todd Jones too.
Bowseason will interfere a little, but not too much. a Broken rib might interfere a bit too!
 
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