What has happened?

[Squeeze]

In the link a few lines under the picture of the plug, he states

So here’s some of the over charge testing I did. Test barrel was a 442/450cal 24.5" green mountain barrel.

 

[sabotloader]

In the link a few lines under the picture of the plug, he states

So here’s some of the over charge testing I did. Test barrel was a 442/450cal 24.5" green mountain barrel.

Missed that - good find Squeeze

 

[bestill]

Correct just spoke to luke green mountain452/450 barrel

 

[bestill]

I see some have already responded

Fivebull and I have actually taken sides with BH209 at Friendship per NMLRA Rules & Regulation #1210. We've actually told NMLRA board members, R&P members and long time shooters (including past owner of GM) that it is allowed per regulations. If they had a problem, they need to take it up with the BATF or BOD or both. What's actually been happening in the past year or so has been around SAFETY on the Walter Cline Range with respect to in-lines.. AKA powder charges, loads, etc. vs manufactures recommendations. We are basically educating them the best we can, which they too can read what's recommended on the manufactures website - it's all out there.
The new President called me from my Savage accident with smokeless report that I emailed (and posted here) to my longtime friend Tom S. who was president when I started attending Friendship. The new President was the only one, who actually took what the Savage guy said for his word and gave an explainable answer - S.E.E. As new president, he also asked questions about the rumblings concerning BH209 that he had heard about. He actually said their were some that wanted it outlawed as did the NRA,NSSA, etc.. I asked him before they take any action, that Western should have a chance to defend themselves with respect to 120/84 maximum charge and ignition issues (this came up again today from a guy at work asking), I ask that he talk to them at the SHOT show - he arranged such a meeting and did. Unfortunately, he did not get the answers/clarification he were hopping. He called me Tuesday of this week telling me so since his return from the SHOT show. The organization is now in a delima - what do they do?
The decision has already been made that no one will be allowed to exceed 120/84 BH209 (which clearly states DO NOT exceed on the can) at the April In-line match. Now, the discussion for the BOD will be, what do they do in June and the September Nationals.

We can all agree, no one cares if we experiment beyond the recommendations on our own time and place. But, not that's not here or the NMLRA.
I've stated before and believe it: when it comes to SAFETY there is no compromise.

 

[chaded]

Anyone that thinks the barrels bestill is using (arent you using a brux, bestill?) wont handle the charges he is using safely is purely ignorant. Sorry to be blunt, but that is the facts. These barrels will handle much higher pressures then what bestill is shooting. I dont know how one guy is allowed to shoot a custom barrel and another guy that has a custom barrel of at least the same quality is not.

You cannot impose a rule that says you cannot go over what the power manufactor says but then give exception to one gun. I dont really care what UF says, a brux barrel (along with several others) will handle every bit of pressure of what they are using. If the rule is good for one, then it is good for the other. If my understanding is correct, didnt bestill talk to the guys about his gun and they decided it was safe? The way it looks it seems that one person is being singled out and is one that happens to win and place high, frequently.

 

[sabotloader]

Anyone that thinks the barrels bestill is using (arent you using a brux, bestill?) wont handle the charges he is using safely is purely ignorant. Sorry to be blunt, but that is the facts. These barrels will handle much higher pressures then what bestill is shooting. I dont know how one guy is allowed to shoot a custom barrel and another guy that has a custom barrel of at least the same quality is not.

You cannot impose a rule that says you cannot go over what the power manufactor says but then give exception to one gun. I dont really care what UF says, a brux barrel (along with several others) will handle every bit of pressure of what they are using. If the rule is good for one, then it is good for the other. If my understanding is correct, didnt bestill talk to the guys about his gun and they decided it was safe? The way it looks it seems that one person is being singled out and is one that happens to win and place high, frequently.

I believe the vendetta is not against the barrel but the type of powder he chooses to use... Which is an approved Black Powder Substitute by rule - using the same rules that govern all BP subs including T7 and the Pyro's.

 

[Grouse]

Me personally thinks this all makes friendship look bad myself. I'm surprised others don't feel the same.

 

[chaded]

Anyone that thinks the barrels bestill is using (arent you using a brux, bestill?) wont handle the charges he is using safely is purely ignorant. Sorry to be blunt, but that is the facts. These barrels will handle much higher pressures then what bestill is shooting. I dont know how one guy is allowed to shoot a custom barrel and another guy that has a custom barrel of at least the same quality is not.

You cannot impose a rule that says you cannot go over what the power manufactor says but then give exception to one gun. I dont really care what UF says, a brux barrel (along with several others) will handle every bit of pressure of what they are using. If the rule is good for one, then it is good for the other. If my understanding is correct, didnt bestill talk to the guys about his gun and they decided it was safe? The way it looks it seems that one person is being singled out and is one that happens to win and place high, frequently.

I believe the vendetta is not against the barrel but the type of powder he chooses to use... Which is an approved Black Powder Substitute by rule - using the same rules that govern all BP subs including T7 and the Pyro's.

Okay, but what i am saying is that if bestill is not allowed to shoot his loads that he has been currently using then someone using a Remington ultimate should not be allowed to use over the amount of standard triple seven or pyro. This whole thing of "well remington or ultimate says you can" doesnt matter. A brux barrel or any other custom one can too. All i am saying is, the rules should apply to everyone.

 

[Grouse]

Anyone that thinks the barrels bestill is using (arent you using a brux, bestill?) wont handle the charges he is using safely is purely ignorant. Sorry to be blunt, but that is the facts. These barrels will handle much higher pressures then what bestill is shooting. I dont know how one guy is allowed to shoot a custom barrel and another guy that has a custom barrel of at least the same quality is not.

You cannot impose a rule that says you cannot go over what the power manufactor says but then give exception to one gun. I dont really care what UF says, a brux barrel (along with several others) will handle every bit of pressure of what they are using. If the rule is good for one, then it is good for the other. If my understanding is correct, didnt bestill talk to the guys about his gun and they decided it was safe? The way it looks it seems that one person is being singled out and is one that happens to win and place high, frequently.

I believe the vendetta is not against the barrel but the type of powder he chooses to use... Which is an approved Black Powder Substitute by rule - using the same rules that govern all BP subs including T7 and the Pyro's.

Okay, but what i am saying is that if bestill is not allowed to shoot his loads that he has been currently using then someone using a Remington ultimate should not be allowed to use over the amount of standard triple seven or pyro. This whole thing of "well remington or ultimate says you can" doesnt matter. A brux barrel or any other custom one can too. All i am saying is, the rules should apply to everyone.

I think it's all about Bestill and a couple guys he shows up with myself.

 

[bestill]

Thru email conversations with fivebull.
The April inline match at friendship will have maximum powder load restrictions per powder manufacturers maximum load limits.
He wanted me to make sure all knew he wasn't singling out blackhorn.
So regardless of build or rifle manufacturers maximum load wont matter.
All will be required to shoot powder manufacturers recommendations.
Side note: there is no restrictions on bullet weight!!

Will this ruling stand in April can't say will june or September nationals be effected don't know.


I do know this definitely effects me and ultimates.

I will add , more discussion between nmlra and blackhorn will continue and the decision makers for nationals will make educated decision

 

[52Bore]

52bore,
So if im reading your post that 84 gr by weight of blackhorn will be maximum allowed charge for April inline match and possibly for the. Nationals?
Also will pyrodex and triple seven shooters be required to shoot powder manufacturers recommended loads also?

So this is interesting i ask 2 very specific questions which directly effects me and get nothing in return as a answer.
Also interesting to me i live 4 miles from nmlra and am a member that will be one of very few effected and hear this decision on this forum.

bestill: I apologize for not answering last night as it was after mid-night when I made my post and went to bed.
I read your previous post and it is correct.

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

Sounds like the blackpowder heavy lead boys are running scared and the safety nonsense of powder manufacterers recommendations is the only rock they can find to hide behind I think whats really going on is they dont want to get spanked by a 270 emax sabotless pushed at 2450 fps by 95 to 105 gr by weight of blackhorn. Thats whats going on .

 

[flounder]

I understood that a heavy lead black powder shooter won the last match why would they want to run anyone off? It's just two different ways to skin a cat in my opinion and they both do the job in the right hands.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Thru email conversations with fivebull.
The April inline match at friendship will have maximum powder load restrictions per powder manufacturers maximum load limits.
He wanted me to make sure all knew he wasn't singling out blackhorn.
So regardless of build or rifle manufacturers maximum load wont matter.
All will be required to shoot powder manufacturers recommendations.
Side note: there is no restrictions on bullet weight!!

Will this ruling stand in April can't say will june or September nationals be effected don't know.


I do know this definitely effects me and ultimates.

I will add , more discussion between nmlra and blackhorn will continue and the decision makers for nationals will make educated decision

Thus presents a BIG problem. Ultimate rifles have shot the matches at Friendship, using either 3 or 4 pellets of pyrodex or triple seven propellant since the manufacturer days IIRC. Also the Nationals. Its absolutely nothing new, nothing's changed with the rifles. Now.......... someone is going to tell me that I can't shoot 180grs (3-T7M pellets) that my rifle is approved to shoot, YET........... a Remington Ultimate that has been approved BY WESTERN ( I can provide email documentation) can shoot 160grs of BH209 at the NMLRA range????

IMO this whole issue has erupted into something much less difficult than it actually is. Honestly IMO its over two rifles.

BH209 hit the market and is now showing up on the NMLRA range. Its being shot (to my knowledge) from two custom built rifles with custom barrels with heavier charges than a "normal" mass produced muzzleloaders can shoot. If there are others, I missed them last May. These two rifles are shooting more propellant than is listed as safe to shoot on the propellant bottle for rifles Western has no control over. So to error on the safe side, they set a limit for the mass produced muzzleloaders. Not custom barreled rifles.
IMO if bestill or who ever, would go to the rifle barrel manufacturer and find out what their specific barrel maximum pressure is, if his load falls under that limit........ well he should be shoot'n IMO.

Someone at the NMLRA had better ask those who shoot T7 loose propellant at 150grs, that they better be able to prove they've reduced the charge by 10%.

 

[GM54-120]

Make sure no CVA uses 3FG powder of any type too. Its forbidden by CVA in the manual. :nono:

 

[ENCORE50A]

Someone better be able to show where Swiss or Goex lists the load data for in-line rifles too. If no data for in-lines is on the package, bottle or container, then it can't be used either in an in-line comp.

 

[fishhawk2700]

Goex has a load chart on their web site. 100gr max for a .50 cal. Can't find a chart on the swiss/schuetzen web site. Hodgdon 777 both loose and pellets 100gr. All these are by volume. These are just a few. The info is out there.

 

[Squeeze]

aw C'mon. you big lead guys will probably still win past 600. The inline black subs guys only shoot to hunting range.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Goex has a load chart on their web site. 100gr max for a .50 cal. Can't find a chart on the swiss/schuetzen web site. Hodgdon 777 both loose and pellets 100gr. All these are by volume. These are just a few. The info is out there.

Looking at the Goex load chart right now, there's no mention of in-line rifles. It does give data for a rifle and conical bullet and the bullet can be no larger than 370grs for a .50cal and 220grs for a .45cal

http://goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Conical.pdf

No load data here: http://www.schuetzenpowder.com/schuetzen-black-powder

 

[sabotloader]

Goex has a load chart on their web site. 100gr max for a .50 cal. Can't find a chart on the swiss/schuetzen web site. Hodgdon 777 both loose and pellets 100gr. All these are by volume. These are just a few. The info is out there.

Looking at the Goex load chart right now, there's no mention of in-line rifles. It does give data for a rifle and conical bullet and the bullet can be no larger than 370grs for a .50cal and 220grs for a .45cal

http://goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Conical.pdf

No load data here: http://www.schuetzenpowder.com/schuetzen-black-powder

The Hodgdon limits are by Volume!

GOEX Black Rifle Powder... There are no limits on the can



So doesn't this say what you can do with GOEX