16 twist 45 caliber remigton 700

[Ga.Smokey]

Today I we t out in the wind to practice a little and start my bullet to bore work.
My goal is to find a supper accurate load and loading process.
I started out with PRB dynamo bullets sized ti give me a 15 pnd loading force and a seat preasure of 30 pnds
With a clean bore.
Sized bullets to .4515 not much sizing needed with this barrel.
The barrel is exstreamly even.
I started with Imr 4198 at 65 grains with a wool wad.
The cold bore clean bore shot was a taste high in the group.
Shots 2 thru 5 wadded up nicely
The velocity averaged 2575 with a SD of 10
Attached is a video of thr gun reconfigure for this work.
Added the muzzle brake I made yesterday
Changed the rings to leupold mark 4 steel.
Watch the first part ofvthe video the comantary is intersting....
View attachment 20240323_132800.mp4
Attached is the chrono report
And here is the group size.
Balistic x data

Enjoy lots more shooting in the next few days.

 

[Decay]

Are you going to vary the seating force as the only variable to determine how many ftlbs is best?

 

[ENCORE50A]

GaSmokey..................

It appears that the force gage is giving you exactly what you want? Imagine that

 

[Ga.Smokey]

Are you going to vary the seating force as the only variable to determine how many ftlbs is best?

Once I settle on a load and bullet.
Right now I'm keeping the force constant to determine best combination.
Again I'm going by results I found with sabots.
Interesting thing that after a fouling shot the preasure increased to 24lbs load force
I maintained the 30 pnds seat force.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

GaSmokey..................

It appears that the force gage is giving you exactly what you want? Imagine that

It does appear to be helping my development.
I hypothesis its about consistency as much as anything. The gauge sure helps in that department.

 

[ElDiablo]

30 lbs seating force sounds like a lot with smokeless. I’d be curious to see if you see different results with something like 1-5 lbs.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

30 lbs seating force sounds like a lot with smokeless. I’d be curious to see if you see different results with something like 1-5 lbs.

The 30 lbs is cumulative.
So you have to take out the 15 pounds of loading force. So in reality I'm at an additional 15 pounds of seating force from the 15 pounds of load force.
Worth investigating for sure.
Say 15 pounds of load add 5 more for seat preasure for a total of 20 pounds.
It's been very intersting to actually have a gauge.
The actual numbers aren't what I thought they felt like.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Once I settle on a load and bullet.
Right now I'm keeping the force constant to determine best combination.
Again I'm going by results I found with sabots.
Interesting thing that after a fouling shot the preasure increased to 24lbs load force
I maintained the 30 pnds seat force.

After the fouling shot and the LOADING force increased to 24# as you mentioned, if you're seating to 30#, that's only 6# additional force.
No way would I seat bullets at only 1#.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

I would suspect o loaded my 777 gun to 100 pnds or more based on what the numbers on the gauge feels like.
It's real easy to go way over without even realizing it......
I might just carry a press down to the firing line to try different things
I just need to go ahead and build a structure.

 

[ENCORE50A]

The actual numbers aren't what I thought they felt like.

There are extremely few who can even guess close to actual forces. It takes years of working with forces to understand it.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

There are extremely few who can even guess close to actual forces. It takes years of working with forces to understand it.

I'm getting a better understanding of it.
It's been very educational to say the least.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

The forces do in my humble opinion have effects on the chronograph.
If you look at shot 3 it was out of the group on the report.
It was the first bullet I sized it was not near as tight. Interestingly though it was in the wad of shots2 /3/4 more shooting is required.

Those differences will show up in external balistics magnified as range increases.

 

[ElDiablo]

I think many of us push the sized bullet to the smokeless powder charge and stop. No (very little) additional compression. I haven’t played around with it enough to know if more compression makes a difference with my loads or not. But, I do believe that consistency is key.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

I think many of us push the sized bullet to the smokeless powder charge and stop. No (very little) additional compression. I haven’t played around with it enough to know if more compression makes a difference with my loads or not. But, I do believe that consistency is key.

For me the gauge is a means to quantify the data.
It appears on the surface to make a difference.
I can't rember if I said earlier but I am using a 12mm dry wool wad with this load.
I'm sure there is some rebound from the wad.
I have no real way to test it though.

I would agree that smokeless by design is generally ment to have an air gap.
At least in cartridge ammunition that it was originally designed for.
I wonder if a reamer were made for the powder colum and a plug made to fit the space the powder went into that had a seating shoulder so you just pushed the bullet to contact that.
All the powder in the plug the bullet on top of that.
I hypothesis that you could end up with a shorter squat powder colum and more usable rifling without compressed powder.
Interesting concept.
That's how the nitro rifles are made

 

[Decay]

I ordered a $3.00 aluminum stop collar to put on my ramrod. My thinkin is the collar, held in place and easily adjusted by a set screw, will be attached where my witness mark is. After my powder is dumped in and I ram my bullet and sabot down to make contact with the powder, I would set the collar, maybe just .01" further down and presumably this would be giving me uniform and consistent seating compression. I'd fiddle with the .01" increment and let group size dictate what amount of compression is best.
Every time I change bullet or powder charge the set collar would need to be adjusted, so this isn't necessarily great when doing load development, but once my load is determined, then the collar is set.
Does this sound feasible? Would signficant changes in daily temperature, or barrel temperature make this fail? It seems so simple I can't believe I haven't seen or heard of this. Maybe somebody has already proven this idea to be no good.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I ordered a $3.00 aluminum stop collar to put on my ramrod. My thinkin is the collar, held in place and easily adjusted by a set screw, will be attached where my witness mark is. After my powder is dumped in and I ram my bullet and sabot down to make contact with the powder, I would set the collar, maybe just .01" further down and presumably this would be giving me uniform and consistent seating compression. I'd fiddle with the .01" increment and let group size dictate what amount of compression is best.
Every time I change bullet or powder charge the set collar would need to be adjusted, so this isn't necessarily great when doing load development, but once my load is determined, then the collar is set.
Does this sound feasible? Would signficant changes in daily temperature, or barrel temperature make this fail? It seems so simple I can't believe I haven't seen or heard of this. Maybe somebody has already proven this idea to be no good.

The stop collar would be better than just trying to guess. The whole idea of it in the first place was to try to maintain consistency. The first person to do it was thinking....

What the collar would do, is to give you a consistent stop, which doesn't really indicate a compression force.

Why? There are contributing factors that you have to deal with, such as bullet lengths being identical, wad/sabot compression differences, and of course the propellant itself. For example, BH209........ when even used by weight, the volume will fluctuate, which is why when we use it by weight, we average 10 volume charges and use that weight.

However, the whole idea is better than a guess.

 

[Decay]

Thanks. In my case it will be smokeless powder, either N110, N120, or IMR4198.

 

[ElDiablo]

I ordered a $3.00 aluminum stop collar to put on my ramrod. My thinkin is the collar, held in place and easily adjusted by a set screw, will be attached where my witness mark is. After my powder is dumped in and I ram my bullet and sabot down to make contact with the powder, I would set the collar, maybe just .01" further down and presumably this would be giving me uniform and consistent seating compression. I'd fiddle with the .01" increment and let group size dictate what amount of compression is best.
Every time I change bullet or powder charge the set collar would need to be adjusted, so this isn't necessarily great when doing load development, but once my load is determined, then the collar is set.
Does this sound feasible? Would signficant changes in daily temperature, or barrel temperature make this fail? It seems so simple I can't believe I haven't seen or heard of this. Maybe somebody has already proven this idea to be no good.

I believe it’s important to consider the potential variations in settling of your powder charge from load to load. Since this is the SML forum, for example with IMR 4198, I notice that a 57 grain charge will settle considerably. Here is a comparison of the height of a “poured” 57 gr charge vs a “tapped” (settled) 57 gr charge. My procedure is to lightly tap the barrel 10 times before seating the bullet to attempt to achieve a little more consistency.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Thanks. In my case it will be smokeless powder, either N110, N120, or IMR4198.

Same with SML as can be witnessed above/below ..............

I believe it’s important to consider the potential variations in settling of your powder charge from load to load. Since this is the SML forum, for example with IMR 4198, I notice that a 57 grain charge will settle considerably. Here is a comparison of the height of a “poured” 57 gr charge vs a “tapped” (settled) 57 gr charge. My procedure is to lightly tap the barrel 10 times before seating the bullet to attempt to achieve a little more consistency.

View attachment 42833

 

[Decay]

For me the gauge is a means to quantify the data.
It appears on the surface to make a difference.
I can't rember if I said earlier but I am using a 12mm dry wool wad with this load.
I'm sure there is some rebound from the wad.
I have no real way to test it though.

I would agree that smokeless by design is generally ment to have an air gap.
At least in cartridge ammunition that it was originally designed for.
I wonder if a reamer were made for the powder colum and a plug made to fit the space the powder went into that had a seating shoulder so you just pushed the bullet to contact that.
All the powder in the plug the bullet on top of that.
I hypothesis that you could end up with a shorter squat powder colum and more usable rifling without compressed powder.
Interesting concept.
That's how the nitro rifles are made