30 caliber smokeless muzzleloader build

[Ga.Smokey]

Well it's been a long road with many long hours of machine work many phone calls to MtMonkey and NineRing.
Lots of head scratching to get to where I can post up something worth while.
The project has been 6 months for me in the making. The barrel ordered last year from lilja barrels after a lengthy conversation with Carson Lilja whom I've know since he was a very young man. His father Dan made my barrels before that.
I have a long standing relation ship with the Lilja Family. Great people and products second to none. I ve built many 1 hole guns using there tubes. Always top shelf!

I started with a pawn shop special savage 308 model 10 top bolt release gun for this project.
Just to make sure I had the parameters the way I wanted I sacrificed the factory barrel in 10 twist. Cut in a hankins 9/16 plug and tested.View attachment 20240505_185411.mp4
The video is the first shot.
The gun went bang didn't blow up the primmers looked great.
The accuracy was minute of plywood.
But I'm not easily discouraged so I saw it for what it was.
I played around for a week or two and figured I just needed to grow a pair and build the sacred Lilja Barrel. I'd waited 12 weeks for it I wasn't waiting any longer.
I did some really cool things with this part of the build.
Developing a breach plug and chamber dimensions to mirror a 30 br chamber.
The goal was to shoot the 115 berger at 3050 ft/sec at better than moa accuracy.
This is what I came up with.
Details
Savage model 10 donor action
Lilja 16 twist .3015/.308 barrel finished at 27 inch hand lapped by Carson Lilja
A modified HIS breach plug.
Small powder chamber.
Desh bokt lift kit
Glades armory knob
Jard trigger set to 7 0z
Egw rail
Arken ep5 5to25x56mm
Arken rings.
All together in a mdt field stock.which i really like.
So I've been shooting it for a couple weeks now.
And I know lots of bullets not to use.
There were so many things needed that I didn't know I needed till I did.
I made a sizing die
Made a short starter.
Made a range rod
Made a jag.
Stuff we just take for granted in 45 and 50
It took time to noodle it all out.
Here is today's test with 115 grain burger bullets.
Smooth sized at 2975 ft/sec.

Intersting that the last 3 bullets went thru the same hole. The barrel was clean and really started to wake up as I was finishing up.
I've got way more testing to do and wY more fun ti have.
Tom at swing lock has been an awesome resource. And is making me a full form die.
I hope to hunt deer this fall with 110to 130 grain barnes monos
They ought to be a laser beem at 3100 to 3200

 

[Ga.Smokey]

By the way the rifle is a joy to shoot.
It lives up to the 30 br reputation of very light recoil.
The rifle is In The 11/12pnd weight class.
I am not sure about putting a muzzke brake on yet I need to shoot more. It dint need one for hunting. But for target work it could use one. I like to see my impacts In the glass.

 

[Mnt monkey]

Many people have tried heavy long bullets with the other bore,s not many people have tried,,, light for bore, no reason why slower twist barrel and light bullets in 30 cal could not shoot as well as the 30 BR cartridge ,in fact it may even be better, it's just a matter of the right bullet and powder and primer, it gives a whole new spin on modern version of a squirrel rifle, think about everything that Mr benchrest goes through to get his six PPC or his 30 br to shoot he's worried about Blueprinting ,everything he's worried about neck tension, he's worried about neck concentricity, he's worried about bullet jump or Jam, he's worried about a tweaked out powder charge, he's worried about a lot of other things a modern muzzleloader should be able to take the same bullets in the same powder and take all those variables that a cartridge shooter is trying to balance and just step around them and put bullets in a hole.
If the accuracy is there look at the economics compared to shooting 45 Cal smokeless if the accuracy is there I'm interested and I believe it is there.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

Many people have tried heavy long bullets with the other bore,s not many people have tried,,, light for bore, no reason why slower twist barrel and light bullets in 30 cal could not shoot as well as the 30 BR cartridge ,in fact it may even be better, it's just a matter of the right bullet and powder and primer, it gives a whole new spin on modern version of a squirrel rifle, think about everything that Mr benchrest goes through to get his six PPC or his 30 br to shoot he's worried about Blueprinting ,everything he's worried about neck tension, he's worried about neck concentricity, he's worried about bullet jump or Jam, he's worried about a tweaked out powder charge, he's worried about a lot of other things a modern muzzleloader should be able to take the same bullets in the same powder and take all those variables that a cartridge shooter is trying to balance and just step around them and put bullets in a hole.
If the accuracy is there look at the economics compared to shooting 45 Cal smokeless if the accuracy is there I'm interested and I believe it is there.

In fact the action is not blueprint.
I did square up the factory lug on sand paper and glass a poor man's surface grinder.
It's straight from the pawn shop.
I did take great care in setting up to do the ID work on the barrel getting the rifling peaks dialed in within .0001 " as spun in the lathe.
It took me a couple days to set up in my spare time.
The charges are auto thrown on a Lyman auto scale there not weighed as precisely as I've been doing for match charges.
The bullets are box to sizer to gun not sorting yet.
I'm so far from done it's a game changer for sure.
The accuracy is only going to improve from here.
I belive the light thin j-4 jackets are the key.
I tried several iterations of hand made bullets that didn't work very well but I may revisit with the heavier charges.

 

[Ninering62]

Well it's been a long road with many long hours of machine work many phone calls to MtMonkey and NineRing.
Lots of head scratching to get to where I can post up something worth while.
The project has been 6 months for me in the making. The barrel ordered last year from lilja barrels after a lengthy conversation with Carson Lilja whom I've know since he was a very young man. His father Dan made my barrels before that.
I have a long standing relation ship with the Lilja Family. Great people and products second to none. I ve built many 1 hole guns using there tubes. Always top shelf!

I started with a pawn shop special savage 308 model 10 top bolt release gun for this project.
Just to make sure I had the parameters the way I wanted I sacrificed the factory barrel in 10 twist. Cut in a hankins 9/16 plug and tested.View attachment 44255
The video is the first shot.
The gun went bang didn't blow up the primmers looked great.
The accuracy was minute of plywood.
But I'm not easily discouraged so I saw it for what it was.
I played around for a week or two and figured I just needed to grow a pair and build the sacred Lilja Barrel. I'd waited 12 weeks for it I wasn't waiting any longer.
I did some really cool things with this part of the build.
Developing a breach plug and chamber dimensions to mirror a 30 br chamber.
The goal was to shoot the 115 berger at 3050 ft/sec at better than moa accuracy.
This is what I came up with.View attachment 44254
Details
Savage model 10 donor action
Lilja 16 twist .3015/.308 barrel finished at 27 inch hand lapped by Carson Lilja
A modified HIS breach plug.
Small powder chamber.
Desh bokt lift kit
Glades armory knob
Jard trigger set to 7 0z
Egw rail
Arken ep5 5to25x56mm
Arken rings.
All together in a mdt field stock.which i really like.
So I've been shooting it for a couple weeks now.
And I know lots of bullets not to use.
There were so many things needed that I didn't know I needed till I did.
I made a sizing die
Made a short starter.
Made a range rod
Made a jag.
Stuff we just take for granted in 45 and 50
It took time to noodle it all out.
Here is today's test with 115 grain burger bullets.
Smooth sized at 2975 ft/sec.View attachment 44251
View attachment 44252View attachment 44253
Intersting that the last 3 bullets went thru the same hole. The barrel was clean and really started to wake up as I was finishing up.
I've got way more testing to do and wY more fun ti have.
Tom at swing lock has been an awesome resource. And is making me a full form die.
I hope to hunt deer this fall with 110to 130 grain barnes monos
They ought to be a laser beem at 3100 to 3200

Great post. Killer build & you’re really on to something with that group. That’s one hellova “ just gettin started “ group.
I can’t wait till the three of us get shooting our 30 builds.
Let the games begin!

 

[Ga.Smokey]

Got out this morning and shot another group.
The conditions were horrible with 15 ti 20 mph tailwind thru 9 o'clock
The wind went dead flat on the one I. The red opening tge group up to .9 nothing to write home about. But I'm getting close the velocity is evening out and tge SDs are tightening up.
My average velocity is 3017 with an SD of 18 ft/sec

 

[Ninering62]

Got out this morning and shot another group.
The conditions were horrible with 15 ti 20 mph tailwind thru 9 o'clock
The wind went dead flat on the one I. The red opening tge group up to .9 nothing to write home about. But I'm getting close the velocity is evening out and tge SDs are tightening up.
My average velocity is 3017 with an SD of 18 ft/sec View attachment 44260

That’s what I’m talking about. Good shooting

 

[Decay]

This is incredible. I love seeing what you guys with the machinist background can build.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

That’s what I’m talking about. Good shooting

Thanks Brother it's been a long time comming. This thing is just plain fun to shoot.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

This is incredible. I love seeing what you guys with the machinist background can build.

We're just getting started. I believe this concept will blosum into something great!

 

[Mnt monkey]

The 30 br ,30 Grendel, 30 major Etc ,as well as the 6 mm ppcs and br's are the most accurate cartridges shot in America today competitively in 100,200 and 300 yard categories, if you look at the powders they use you will see it is the same powders that we use for 45 Cal smokeless mostly h 4198 but you will also see other powder such as n-120 and n-130 almost all of the powders that could be shot or used in the 6 mm or 30 cal benchrest rifles can also be shot if they're of a cylindrical build in 45 Cal smokeless to me in a proportional sense if you look at the bullets of 45 Cal say a 275 to 300 grain and you compare them to a 30 cal 100 to 115 grain bullet in a proportional sense they look close to each other,, if you remove again all of the Dynamics of a cartridge and try to achieve the accuracy that the cartridge produces in just a muzzle loading format there's no reason why it cannot be done and be done efficiently and safely, economic wise there's hardly any comparing the two, 45 versus 30 and again I'm only talking about 30 cal with the small bullets between 90 and 120 grains, also believe the 6mm trying to mimic 6ppc loads and 6br loads with mostly 70 grain bullets or less would work very efficiently and accurately also. I'm very interested in this not to have a new bore to hunt with, but to have a new bore to put bullets in the same hole with. I see no reason why you couldn't take Blackhorn black powder or one of the other subs and also work with this we have 32 Cal squirrel guns there's no reason why a version of what we're talking about here couldn't also be developed even for more traditional guns and lighter pressures I mean if you're considering a 32 Cal squirrel gun but the potential to shoot a 30 cal that absolutely shot a hole wouldn't that be interesting to the traditional shooter also and I could easily see a whole new sport grow in America bench rest muzzleloading 102 and 300 yd and a whole new realm of rifles, ga.smokey we have only just begun!

 

[Ga.Smokey]

I was talking with a good friend yesterday and the question of with all the great 40/45/50 caliber guns out there and the great load data what purpose does the 30 caliber serve.

My gut reaction is well because I can. Thats not a purposes thats just ego and theres no place for that in this debate.. I thought about what we're really accomplishing here. That answer is quite astonishing.

1) economics : My current load costs $ 1.03
Per shot with match bullets which is a little less than half per shot of my 45 caliber match load I'll either shoot more or save money.
2) accuracy : I'm just getting started with development and am shooting sub minute I belive the 30 as built will be highly inherently accurate. Easy to hit an accuracy node.
3 ) recoil : I would say that the 30 as I'm shooting it has 1/3 to 1/4 the recoil energy of the 45 its more than a 22 and not quite as sharp as a 243 the recoil signature is a push in the shoulder very little scope upset. Not quite scope neutral but close. My muzzle brake will take care of that if I choose to install one.

4 ) Hunting application:
With a full form die from Tom at swinglock I believe and will find out soon that a mono bullet will allow you to hunt in certain situations in some states with as much power as needed to hunt everything short of moose /elk/ great bears.
With a 115 target/varmint coyotes/squirel/ groundhogs/etc varmints are scared
With 110 to 130 grain barnes monos deer/pigs/black beer/elk with perfect patient shot placement at modest range are going down. I would probably take a 40 or 45 if my purpose was elk moose or bear but would not pass on an elk of opportunity if carrying the 30 based on my experience with 30 caliber over the years. The 130 barnes is rated thru elk by the manufaturer. The monos act like a cup and core 2 to 3 times bigger in penitration.
Many a deer have fallen to a 80 grain 243
My wife included i was present when she took her buck. It was like a lightning strike. I have personally taken a truck load of deer with a127 in 6.5 creedmoor. Many elk also taken with that bullet at 2850
So the evidence is strong in my mind.
Ga last year changed the game laws to allow for 30 caliber muzzle loaders fir turkey and deer that initially drove the spark for this project for me.

Fun:
This gun is pleasant to shoot well mannered
Easy on the shoulder for those with shoulder troubles or arthritis
I wish I'd done it sooner but I just wasn't ready. I needed to do the learning with tge 45 calibers first to gain the knowledge to attempt his advanced project.

I must stop and thank MtMonkey. Whom without his encouragement ,support and wisdom this project wouldn't have been posible
I must thank Ninering62 with out his enthusiastic passion for muzzle loading I wouldn't have attempted this project.
These two members are assets to this sport and have great insights as to why projects of this nature failed in the past.
Thanks to Jeff Hankins and Tom at swinglock. Carson Lilja
For there time and products.

We're smooth sizing bullets when everyone else told me I was nuts for even trying it.
I even questioned the wisdom myself a couple times in the past month or so
But as you can see it's working very well.

Ga Smokey

 

[Decay]

I thinks pretty soon you'll be switching to small rifle primers too.

 

[45-70]

so what kind of powder column do you have, I understand in smaller cal. that that can cause higher pressure , just wondering , i know of a .50 being built in a 24 twist for smkls

 

[Decay]

This is gun and bullet evolution. Brains think and tinkers tinker. Machinists make metal things for guns. Getting a 30 cal smokeless muzzy opens the door to how many bullets that are available? Dozens? scores? maybe hundreds! That's why.
Keep at it.

 

[Decay]

so what kind of powder column do you have, I understand in smaller cal. that that can cause higher pressure , just wondering , i know of a .50 being built in a 24 twist for smkls

i know of a .50 being built in a 24 twist for smkls

 

[Decay]

A 50 smokeless! Yeah a G3 Woodman Patriot!

 

[Ga.Smokey]

so what kind of powder column do you have, I understand in smaller cal. that that can cause higher pressure , just wondering , i know of a .50 being built in a 24 twist for smkls

If you look at the successful Benchrest cartridges they all have something in common.
Short fat powder collums that is what have tried to duplicate.
My educated eye tells me I'm in the 45 to 47k preasure area. The load chamber volume powder charge and subsequent velocity is right in line with the 30 br. They operate in tge 50 to 55k psi range
I have very nice rounded primmers no heavier bolt lift than when closing I like a tight module no exstractor marks or anything that would indicate anywhere near preasure issues.
I'm very encouraged.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

This is gun and bullet evolution. Brains think and tinkers tinker. Machinists make metal things for guns. Getting a 30 cal smokeless muzzy opens the door to how many bullets that are available? Dozens? scores? maybe hundreds! That's why.
Keep at it.

We have to keep our expectations in check on this most 30 cal bullets are not suitable to be driven hard enough to obturate without getting into that danger preasure area.the bases of the bullets and rear portion of the jacket are just to thick.
The berger j4 type thin jacket is the key to this endeavor.
I've thought about this for months and Mt monkey /9ring for years.
Mt monkeys analogy of scale and bullet construction is spot on we just have to be wise in this I think that 130 grains is about the limits that I'd want to play with.
And that would be with full formed bullets
My thoughts are that light for bore keeps us safe and at the end of the day saftey is the only issue.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

I thinks pretty soon you'll be switching to small rifle primers too.

Wouldn't that be nice
I'd be happy to use the large rifle that I have thousands of instead of the magnums I have hundreds of.
Small rifle primmers may not have the heat and energy needed to ignite the colum in such away to set obturation.
Believe me I tried large rifle first and need to revisit. The ignition was OK but that was with lighter charges.i need to try one thing at a time to do this right.