A Lehigh explanation..

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sabotloader

Keep Shooting Muzzleloaders - They are a Blast
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I hesitated posting this but it has been posted on other forums so it might as well show up here.

It really is a good read read although there are some explanations in here that will really concern some of us 'old time - set-in-our-way" type guys. Sometimes it is really hard for us to get outside the box.

New theories pop up all the time some good some not so good - through the years (and there has been a lot of them) I try to at least look and maybe you can teach an old dog new tricks.

That is the point I am at - Some of this sounds really good other parts - goona have to see it work to believe it - BUT - what if it does work...

Dave Fricke is the operator of Lehigh and this is his response to 'Explain your bullet'

Tom,

Thank you for the inquiry on why Lehigh Bullets uses brass instead of copper. I thought I would expand this to also include how the Lehigh bullets function. The design aspects of a good hunting bullet include: accuracy, initial penetration, expansion/energy transfer, organ destruction, and final penetration/perforation.

Accuracy

Accuracy is important for terminal performance as the bullet has to get to the intended location. Lehigh bullets are machined from bar stock on CNC lathes. The bullets come off the machine complete with no secondary operations. The bullets are machined at around 8,000 rpm. The bullet is being formed while spinning, the concentricity of all the features is inherent in the process. The hollow point is centered on the outside diameter and the wall thickness is equal all around the bullet. This means the center of the geometry is equal to the axis of rotation which makes for an accurate bullet. A formed bullet, either a jacketed or formed solid copper bullet is made in a static process, it is not spinning. Manufacturing and tooling tolerances make it very difficult to keep the internal features like the hollow point at the true center axis. Most of these bullets are also produced on a press that may form 10-15 at a time. Each of those bullets have the potential for being slightly out of balance due to the different tooling each one sees. I am not stating you can not make an accurate bullet through the forming method; I am just stating it is easier to produce an accurate bullet by machining. The downside of machining bullets is the cycle time. Machining yields somewhere around 120 bullets per hour while forming can yield over 5,000 per hour.

Initial Penetration

The bullet must be strong enough to penetrate the animals hide and muscle boundary before expansion begins. Factors for consideration include the bullet weight, impact velocity, and the animal?s structure. Due to these variables, bullets have to be designed based on estimated averages which induces performance issues when game is taken at the extremes of where the bullet designers thought the bullet would be used. This affects all manufactures. Machining a bullet from brass enables us to very quickly change the design features like the hollow point and then test the result. Since the parameters are controlled by CNC code, it is very simple and fast to change from one design to another enabling the testing of many configurations in a single day to quickly arrive at an optimum design. This process takes much longer on formed bullets as changes are tooling dependent. New dies and punches must be produced for each trial and the equipment must be then setup and centered making it a long process to try to get to the optimum performance level. The investment in tooling is very large and that is why you may find a formed bullet manufacture producing a poorly performing bullet for sometime before changing the design. The tooling and machine may also limit the formed bullet manufacture on how strong they can make the nose for complete initial penetration. The forming machine may not have the power to form a jacket with sufficient wall thickness resulting with a bullet that begins expansion upon contact severely limiting the bullets terminal performance. Machining a brass bullet to any wall thickness is very simple.

Expansion/Energy Transfer

This phase of terminal performance is very similar in a Lehigh brass bullet and a copper or jacketed bullet. The process begins as the bullet contacts the animal and completes when the bullet is fully expanded. The nose, or meplat, of the bullet determines the initial energy transfer. Big, flat noses transfer an extreme amount of energy. Depending on the impact point, this energy may be sufficient to shut down the animal?s nervous system. While a large flat nose is the best design for initial energy transfer, it lowers the ballistic coefficient of the bullet resulting in velocity loss and making it more susceptible to wind conditions.

Upon penetrating the hide and muscle layer, the bullet encounters tissue with a greater liquid content. This hydraulic pressure in the hollow point cavity causes the nose to expand transferring additional energy to the animal. Expansion is complete when the upset growth stops which on a jacketed bullet could be a partial expansion or when the nose is completely folded back around the shank. Assuming a .500" diameter jacketed bullet, expansion may reach a frontal diameter of 1.00". Lehigh bullets start expansion much in the same way. The bullets are designed to begin expansion upon the resulting hydraulic pressure. The nose petals are then designed to split the web of material between them. Once the petals achieve an angle of slightly less than 45 degrees, the petals separate from the base and radiate outward on independent trajectory paths. Remember all components of the bullet are still spinning.

Organ Destruction

In this phase there are some very distinct differences between a conventional formed/mushrooming bullet and a Lehigh brass bullet. As the Lehigh bullet's petals radiate outward, additional energy is transferred by each of the six petals. The petals have sharp cutting edges, and coupled with the spinning action, they are devastating to all tissue encountered leading to massive organ damage. The radial pattern will normally extend over 10". A customer recently tested the bullets on a bison and using a metal detector found petals 18" from the base path. Organ destruction was enormous. Often there is sufficient energy in the petals to penetrate the offside hide. A conventional mushrooming bullet can only affect tissue near its path through the animal. A 10" wide path of destruction has a greater terminal effect that a 1" path. Please note we are not advocating using the controlled fracturing feature for a hunter to take marginal shots, we are just extending the killing performance of a well-placed shot.

Final Penetration/Perforartion

The increased frontal diameter of a mushroomed bullet severely impairs additional penetration. The increase surface area slows the bullet down quickly and imperfect mushrooming where one side expands further than the other results in the bullet veering off the intended course. The large radius of the nose also tends to follow the path of least resistance which pulls the bullet off course. If you look at most African game solids, the nose has a large flat which punches through bone and keeps the bullet tracking straight. Once the controlled fracturing of the petals on the Lehigh bullet is complete, the bullet shank continues penetrating with a frontal diameter equal to the bullet diameter. The new nose of the bullet is flat; the best shape for straight line penetration and the circumference edge around the face is sharp allowing the bullet to cut cleanly and to punch through bone without course variation. The Lehigh bullet shank is designed to retain sufficient energy to completely penetrate the offside hide providing an exit blood trail.

In summary, the controlled fracturing of the Lehigh bullet is very different from what we have been conditioned to believe is the optimal performance. The terminal performance of the Lehigh's is devastating and much different than a mushrooming bullet. We are not going to get everyone to drink the Lehigh Kool-aide, but I hope over time that people will see through experience that the Lehigh terminal performance is superior. As a bullet designer I have the responsibility to game of creating the most effective bullet possible - this is a responsibility I take very seriously.

Thanks for your inquiry and I hope my explanation was clear.

Dave Fricke
 
Very interesting read. Sounds like they are still trying to perfect their design. Which is a good thing, not a bad thing. I'm curious to know where they think this will take them . I'd like to see a muzzleloader bullet take on a pointier tip, boat tail and top it off with a tip. Guess I'm implying more of a traditional centerfire bullet. Not saying go that extreme, but take some of those concepts into a ML bullet design
 
There really is NO Valid reason that a bullet should Break apart.If that was the case ,then PowerBelts already has it cover very well.These Lehighs are solid brass.Brass is to hard to mushroom on it's own without breaking apart.But Brass most likely manchines better than softer metals, and that's the only reason i can see why they use solid brass.Why does not Lehigh Maker's not see this :huh?:
 
i have to agree with SwampFox ..BRASS will not mushroom ,like copper or lead ...i don't want a bullet that fragments inside the animal. that being said i will stick with my TMZ's for hunting and the SST HORNADY on the range for practice ..
but i must say it sounds interesting [lets wait and see]
 
"The radial pattern will normally extend over 10". A customer recently tested the bullets on a bison and using a metal detector found petals 18" from the base path. Organ destruction was enormous. Often there is sufficient energy in the petals to penetrate the offside hide. A conventional mushrooming bullet can only affect tissue near its path through the animal. A 10" wide path of destruction has a greater terminal effect that a 1" path"

This is the part of the write up that concerns me, well that and the fairly low BC of their bullets at the moment. I understand that sometimes traditional bullets may fragment and cause meat loss. Stuff happens, and I am able to live with this slight chance, if it is an accurate bullet. However designing a bullet to fragment each and every time just isn't my cup of tea.
 
Personally, I feel the gun media that mandated high weight retention is a good thing, is way over rated as long as adequate penetration is occurring. I don't care if a bullet sheds its jacket and looses 90% of its weight as long as it exits on deer sized game, what's the big deal? It will be more lethal than a "premium" controlled expansion bullet. It will definately do more damage. Deer are not hard to kill, have thin skin, and relatively small body mass. I have no doubt the Lehigh bullets will work superbly for deer sized game, even up to caribou sized game, these bullets should be great performers.
 
I guess Grouse doesn't have to be active here anymore. Almost all of his threads from other forums have made their way over here without him... He's the new T.R. Michels....
 
Sabotloader I am not sure I like the idea of a bullet fragmenting. But perhaps I still think in terms of old school. Bullets should stick together, and pass through for me. Well this bullet still has the chance to pass through, but it is loosing parts which creater a larger wound channel. I am not sure how I like that. Something I have to think on.

I do demand a bullet be accurate. I also want it to release its energy in the animal. I want a wound channel. And pass through. And last I want to see how it does in the field. So this bullet might be all right. It does have my interest. That's for sure.
 
cayuga

Dave, I really do share your concerns.... but I am trying to let myself think outside the confinments of the 'box'... If we only did the norm how would we ever find something new or move on.

In theory it sounds like it might work - I really do not know and the only way I am going to no is if I try it.

I really do remember back a few hundres years ago when I first started hunting elk with a 300 win mag - I was using, at that time, hand loaded 220 grain Hornady bullets. I shot a few elk with this round, and yes the animal died, but it always bothered me when I would find the copper just inside the hide on the entrance side and the rest of the bullet went on it's merry way. All the old timers told me this was the norm for the Hornady - 'ya got the animal didn'y ya?' - Then someone recommended Nosler Partitions to me - they said "they do not expand as large but they stay together." Well that 'expansion' thing really worried me - you can not imagine the punishment a mad bull can absorb and act normal. Finally I worked up the nerve and loaded up some Noslers - I have never looked back - it was the best thing I ever did for hunting and harvesting animals humainly and cleanly. So what if the Lehigh works.. and what if the lead ban gets bigger.. and what if????

It goes back along ways when they first said a conical will never replace a round ball... that nitro-cell powder would never be as good black.... flint locks will never work as well as a match lock.... inlines would never work better than percussion.... and etc and etc...

Remember also the according to all the scholars of the time the world was flat... It took somebody to ask and ask 'is it really'
 
WOW SABOTLOADER wrote ....

I really do remember back a few hundres years ago when I first started hunting elk with a 300 win mag ..

of the record just how old are you ?????????????//
 
Wellll, my 8th grade History students really felt that I got here on the Mayflower - one even asked if I were here during the big bang! and I think she was serious....
 
SWThomas said:
I guess Grouse doesn't have to be active here anymore. Almost all of his threads from other forums have made their way over here without him... He's the new T.R. Michels....


Funny how that works :D

Guess I'd be Flattered...even Honored, if folks were copy&pasting my postings to other forums :wink:
 
Sabotloader, I didn't know were a school teacher. I taught 8th grade math for 8 years and now teach 9th and 10th algebra students at our high school. Sorry I got off subject.
 
Grouse

Whats the deal on Grouse? I enjoyed his contributations.
Wayles
 
Hulions

Scott... small world a couple of JH teachers on a muzzleloading forum... but I have to admit - I did retire a couple years back - but I am still coaching football - so i stay in touch with those wonder children that know way to much already....

I have a minor in math - and algerbra is my favorite - if it were not for geometry and calculus - I might have even got a major there... so instead I ended up with a PE and Social Studies major with minors in Math and Biological Sciences...

Then went to work for the US forest service for 28 years then back to teaching -- it has been interesting...
 
While i know this thread is not about Grouse,but his name has/is coming up in it.Grouse is a good guy as well as alot of other here are to_One thing you can say about a good Guy,is they will be a good guy no matter where he goes.I have all the respect in the world for Grouse and love to read his post,here there, and ever where :D
 
SwampFox said:
While i know this thread is not about Grouse,but his name has/is coming up in it.Grouse is a good guy as well as alot of other here are to_One thing you can say about a good Guy,is they will be a good guy no matter where he goes.I have all the respect in the world for Grouse and love to read his post,here there, and ever where :D

I agree. Even if it was something I may have disagreed with, I enjoyed his input.

Dave
 

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