Adjustable peep sight setups

[Boomer]

Based on actual experience, what do others find to be the optimum hunting and informal target sight setup, as far as peep and globe type sights are concerned?

I currently have two TCs with 45 caliber LRH barrels sporting Lyman 57 SMLs on the rear and Lyman 17AML front sights using Lee Shavers inserts. fairly common, I guess. Have two MK85s that I am looking to set up with peep sights at some point in the future. Whatever I do, would like have all four setup pretty similar, but not sure that is possible.

Rambling rear sight question. Stay with the Lyman 57 or go to the Williams 1340 on the sidelocks? I have no experience with the Williams sight. With the MKs, I believe they would use either the Williams 44540 or Lyman 66MK (looks to be discontinued), any preferences? Does anyone see any real advantage to the Williams over the Lyman peep sight in general? Both Lyman and Williams appear to have 'quick adjust knobs' available. Don't see need for quick windage adjustment, and imagine any quick adjustment knob would get in the way on a sidelock (have already slightly bent the hammers to better clear the 57). On the 57 I just use the push button release to quick adjust. On that topic, the movable scale on the 57 allows zeroing out, while the Williams appears to have a set scale. Is one sight more durable than the other?

Front sight question. Is it worth the money for the Shaver 17A with the level when compared to the 17AML? Have a level on a bow sight and find it a distraction while target shooting, but can not say I have even looked at the level while hunting. Also thinking about the Lyman 17AHB that is .404” high (the shortest Shavers that I have seen is .500”). Would allow me to lower the rear sight (I use a steel shim to raise the rear sight base as much as possible to keep the rear sight extended as little as possible, plus allows maximum elevation adjustment.

Don’t want this to be a Ford Chevy thing, just trying to understand if anyone has any real reasons for picking one sight over the other based on what they have experienced. Realistically, don’t see myself ever shooting over 150 yards at unwounded game with a muzzleloader using iron sights, however, with paper or steel, it comes down to how far I can see and adjust for.

 

[Idaholewis]

I have both the Williams FP Hawken, and Lyman 57s (about 8 of them) Just ordered another Lyman 57 This evening They are both great Sights, There are things i like and dislike about both. I think in the end i prefer the Lyman 57, I use to say the Williams FP Hawken, But the Lyman has 2 features that gives it the Advantage for the better all around Tang Peep in my opinion, That is the Adjustable plates for elevation, and Windage, And the Push button “Quick Adjust” on the Lyman is really nice, I use to hate that button, It is really hard/stiff to push, I was talking to Idahoron about this quite sometime ago, Ron texted me a picture showing how he does it, With the Rifle cradled in his arm, using the same hand he hooks his middle or index finger behind the hammer Spur and pushes the Quick Release Button with his thumb, I tried it and it worked very well, it’s a leverage thing
In my opinion the Williams FP Hawken is a Tighter/Cleaner Looking sight, It is well built, The FP Hawken is actually 2 pieces, The tang base is totally seperate, You mount it to the Tang, then Mount the Sight to the Base. I have my Williams Sights setup with Target Knobs, The Williams has no adjustable Plate with Scale like the Lyman has, The Scale is permanently marked in it. And there is no Quick adjust on the Williams if you have the Target knobs, you have to Crank on them to get where you want it, If you chose to go without the Elevation Target knob there is a Giblock Screw (Knurled knob For loosening/tightening by hand) You could simply loosen the Gib and that would free up the Slider, make your move, then lock it in place by tightening the Gib back down. But that is not an option with the Target Knob installed as it runs on a Worm gear. The Lyman runs on a Worm gear as well, But their Push button Quick release bypasses the Worm and allows you to quick adjust the Slider. The Lyman 57 is probably the better choice.

As for front Globes, i have both the Lyman, and 2 of the Shaver’s, In my opinion the Lyman is the Way to go. The Shaver Globes come with a removable Spirit level, Both of my levels are sitting here on the Table beside me, I don’t trust them AT ALL. As for height, all of my Lyman Globes are the AHB .404 (Shortest Globe Lyman Makes) my reasoning is to keep my Peep bridge as low as i can and not give up Peep elevation. I am very adapted to a low Cheek weld, the AHB at .404 is my Choice :yeah:

 

[Idaholewis]

I wish that Both the Lyman and Williams Tang Sights were made of Steel instead of Aluminum, Lyman use to make the 57SML in Steel, they show up from time to time on Ebay, and the Gun sites. In some cases The Lyman 57 needs to be Modified slightly to Fit a Renegade and Hawken, it’s a simple task, Depending on the Shim size you use under the Base you might not need to do it? So far I’ve had to do all of mine, I like my Tang peep Low, and this Corner on the Lyman 57 Will Contact the Stock

Here is 1 i just did for forum member edmehlig, I’ve done enough of these i could probably do it blindfolded

 

[idahoron]

I am not sure I can add much Lewis covered most of my tricks.
The 57 is a very good sight, the quick release button is the ticket.
I also use the Williams FP sight on my MK85's. This is what the standard sight looks like.

Now this is what the sight looks like with the target elevation knob and the Gib lock screw.

I tried to leave the elevator lock screw a bit loose and just adjust the target knob. That didn't work at all. As you shot the screw loosened up and that made the sight move. Then A friend and fellow muzzleloader guy Mike from Alaska turned me on to the gib lock screw. You do have to shorten the screw just a pinch but it is very easy to do. Williams Gun sight company sells them.

Once I fine tuned the rear sight I needed to get a better front sight. I chose the Lyman 17 AHB. I used the original ramp so I needed to have he sight as low as it could go.

What I did was measure the original sight when it was on. Then I installed the new sight and measured it. Now I knew the difference in the height. I also knew I was going to have to raise the rear sight because the peep would run out of elevation fast. I knew the height difference so I made a shim for the rear sight.

In this picture you can see the shim under the sight. The next issue was since I raised both sights My cheek was not going to "weld" to the stock. So I added a cheek pad.

That is the finished rifle, I have two of them. My son shot one for several seasons and like it a lot. He eventually went back to his Renegade because he shoots it better and to be honest the Renegade is easier to clean. This last picture is him shooting at 250 yards.

I made a video on changing the sights, I hope that it helps.

https://youtu.be/QmMHrICv6Ew

 

[Idaholewis]

Ron, Do you stil have that picture showing your method of pushing the Quick Release Button on the Lyman 57 Sight? Seeing that picture really helped me, I actually HATED that button until i tried your method, It’s a leverage thing and works very well :yeah: That is a STIFF button to simply push

 

[Boomer]

Lewis and Ron, thank you for the quick replies.

I have used a shim to raise the rear sight so the 'bridge' is barely off the base of the sight when sighted in at minimum range (don't have a current photo of the actual shim, just the mockup when I was figuring out the shim thickness). Shim is nothing more than a piece of steel that matches the shape of the tang and has a couple clearance holes for screws in it. Interesting, on one of the TCs, a shim of .320 is required, and on the other, a shim of .225 is required. both were zeroed out with a .500 high front sight.

A side view.

From the back. Note stop setscrew is protruding about .060". Leaves a little bit of adjustment just in case.

Wish I could locate a couple of steel Lyman 57s, but most likely will be staying with current 57s for the TCs. Have a Redfield #70 peep that saw at least 15 plus years of hard service (late 40s to early 60s) by the old man before being replaced by a scope, and is still proving its worth on a 721 Remington. All steel, no aluminum. Wonder how many of the aluminum Lyman's and Williams' sights will be serviceable in 70 years?

As far as the MK85s, appears the most realistic option is the Williams peep sight. When I get around to it I believe I will be setting it up with the Lyman AHB to keep it as low as possible. Probably going to change out the two TCs to the AHBs, but not until after this coming hunting season.

Guys, appreciate the input. Looking forward to upcoming responses from others.

dave

 

[Idaholewis]

Boomer, The pic you have with the Washers is actually how i LOCK mine down, i use Stainless or Brass washers that fit perfectly across the Tang (Looks like in you Pic Above) I use 1 Washer under the Rear of the sight, and up Front anywhere from 2 to 4

I like my Tang Peeps to Run as close to level with the Barrel as I possibly can get it, I actually use a long Carpenter level when setting a Rifle up. The Lyman 57 will Lean/tilt forward EVERYTIME. When i say anywhere from 2 to 4 washers up front that is to Correct this Lean/Tilt Forward, And due to NONE of my Rifles being identical (As you found out) They each require a bit of tinkering to Get them Bug Nutz :yeah:

Just using the Washers under the Sight base is all i have ever done, i have 8 of these Rifles setup all in similar fashion and not 1 has Budged after i Cinched them Down, If it weren’t for the Sight being Aluminum i Would trust Standing on top of them, No joke! :yeah: Fabricating a nice Spacer would look nicer and be a fun project, But in my HUMBLE opinion is NOT needed, Once Cinched down GOOD N TIGHT The Washers alone are all that is needed.

 

[Boomer]

Lewis, in the past I have used washers and stand-offs (round post with hole in it) in addition to the solid shim. Washers are easiest to adjust height and level sight. May just leave SS washers on the TCs after next front sight change (will be changing to AHBs from AMLs sooner than later). As you also found, I never had an issue using a stack of washers. Just can’t let them get to high. The photo I posted earlier was just a mock-up with whatever washers were on the work bench and not very neat.

As far as leveling sights, seems everyone I know that is seiious about shooting accurately does it to some degree. With scopes I level the gun horizontally it a vice and then line up crosshairs against a 4 foot level far enough away that the scope will focus on it. With the 57s I level the barrel front to back with a magnetic torpedo level on the top barrel flat, then adjust the sight base until it is level.

One other thing I do with all my TC side locks is ditch the wood screws (or single rear tang wood screw if a later TC) in the tang and install threaded brass inserts in both holes from inside the trigger mortise. Does two things. The most important is that it greatly increases the strength of the stock and pretty much eliminates the possibility of stock splitting or cracking through the lock plate area. And with the machine screws replacing the wood screws it makes it much easier to deal with varying screw lengths required to install and level tang sights. FYI, attempted to drop a few photos of the tang screws and thread inserts in this post, but there is an issue at the moment with Imgur. Will upload later.

 

[edmehlig]

With the 57s I level the barrel front to back with a magnetic torpedo level on the top barrel flat, then adjust the sight base until it is level.

With the help of IdahoLewis in setting up my TC Renegade, I did exactly the same way as you mentioned. Worked like a champ! I only had to put one washer in the rear and two up front to get it leveled. All of that was possible thanks to Lew grinding down the base to my Lyman sight.

 

[idahoron]

Ron, Do you stil have that picture showing your method of pushing the Quick Release Button on the Lyman 57 Sight? Seeing that picture really helped me, I actually HATED that button until i tried your method, It’s a leverage thing and works very well :yeah: That is a STIFF button to simply push

I looked but I couldn't find it. I just took another picture and put it on my online albums. Now I don't have to remember where I put it :lol:

 

[idahoron]

I see my sights are still set for 250 yards.
You can also see my washer shims to make my sight move vertical.

 

[Idaholewis]

Thanks Ron, That Quick release elevation button on the Lyman 57 is REALLY STIFF to just push with your finger! Not everyone will easily do that!! I hated that feature on my first Lyman 57 for a long time until you sent me that picture and i tried it, It is definitely a Leverage thing, and it works Really Well :yeah:

I really like the Williams Sight as well, It’s to bad they don’t offer an Adjustable scale plate, and Quick release Elevation for their Target Knob Slider like Lyman Does, (if you don’t use a Target Knob, you can Quick adjust using the Williams Giblock Screw) Those 2 fearures are important for Guy’s that like to Shoot multiple distances and Adjust their sight for it. These 2 features wouldn’t mean much to The Guy that Sights in for 100 Yards, And Locks his Sight down to stay. Both Sights are well made, A guy won’t go wrong either Way

 

[idahoron]

I also wish that the Williams had the sight plate on the side. That is a very good sight though I like them a lot.

 

[Boomer]

Lewis and Ron, again, thanks for the replies.

Ron, looking at your pictures with the sight set at 250, I have one observation. Looks like when you set the sight to zero, the bridge, for lack of a better term, is still quite a ways above the base, correct? One of the things I have tried to do is raise the base (more washers or thicker shim) so when in the zero position, bridge is barely off the base (I try for .06 to .10 clearance). Like to think with the bridge closer to the base it might be a little less susceptible to damage (it just not hanging out there as far), plus if I ever need it for longer distances or when shooting a heavier (slower) bullet, I have a little more elevation adjustment. Just a thought. Obviously, you have a system figured out that works for you.

I previously mentioned that I remove the tang wood screws holding the TC tang to the stock and replace them with machine screws. I believe this strengthens the stock (minimizes chance of the stock cracking through the lock plate) and makes it much easier to deal with varying screw lengths required to get the tang sight level and at the height I like it. I drill out the wood screw holes through to the trigger mortise and then from inside the mortise I install threaded brass inserts.

View from bottom of stock into trigger mortise.

View of tang area of the stock with wood screw holes drilled out for machine screws.

View from top of tang with dome head 10-32 screws installed.

 

[Idaholewis]

Boomer, Nice work on those Brass inserts, i like that idea :yeah:

Here is a Pic of 1 of my Lyman 57s Zeroed at 100 Yards, As I’ve previously stated I use the Lyman 17AHB Globe to keep my peep Bridge as low as i can get it.

I Like a Low Globe 17AHB

Another 17AHB on my Old Stainless .50 LRH

Here is 1 of My Williams FP Hawken’s Zeroed at 100 Yards, 17AHB Globe up Front, Being this low it gives me all of my Slider height for Longer Ranges

Same Rifle as Above, The Target here is 505 Yards. No way i could do this with a Globe much higher than the AHB as you will see in the photo below, Is Shooting this kind of range Practical? Nah, But it’s a LOT of fun to do :yeah:

Here is my Permanent marked setting for the 500 Yard Target above, as you can see I’m about out of Adjustment

 

[Idaholewis]

This is my Lyman Great Plains Hunter .54 Cal, The Dovetail cut in the barrel is European, Lyman only makes 1 Globe height for the European Dovetail, they call it the AEU, it is .464 High, And I don’t like it! I am gonna change this to the AHB, i recently made myself a “Safe Side” 3 Corner file for Dovetail Work, This Barrel Dove Cut is gonna Become American soon :yeah:

This Rifle is Zeroed at 100 Yards, Look how much Elevation I’ve lost here due to the Globe Height, And this Lyman 57 GPR comes with a Pre made Shim for this Rifle as you can see in the pic, imagine if I didn’t have this Thick shim under the Peep base, I would be Half way up the Slider to get Zero. I don’t like my Peep Bridge this High, I shoot a Low Cheek weld, Not to the point of having to Dig my Face in it, Just Comfy for me.

 

[Boomer]

Will be ordering a couple AHB sights this weekend.

As I previously mentioned, only see myself ‘hunting’ to 150 yards, but I play out to 300 on a regular basis. Range I belong to has steel plates setup out to 300. Just bring a can of white spray paint and ready to go. Don’t not get chance to go past 300 yards very often. But when I get that chance, I want to know I can.

 

[Idaholewis]

It really boils down to a High, or Low Cheek Weld, Which are you more Comfortable with? The Same as above in my pics can be achieved with the AML By Adding a THICK Shim under the Sight Base, If a High cheek weld is your Preference then this would be the Way to go. The AHB Keeps everything nice n low, For a lower Cheek weld the AHB is the Way to go

 

[Boomer]

Silly question. What do you guys use to keep your front sight inserts organized? I’ve got about 30 and they are easy to misplace. Currently keep them in ‘powder’ vials, but that is rather unorganized. Buffalo Arms used to have a vinyl wallet with clear pockets that never seemed to be in stock and now I don’t see it at all. MVA has a small plastic box (an ‘Insert Caddy’) with a magnetic strip to hold the inserts in place. Looks like it would easily break. Have also seen a similar red case also with magnets on both halves, and it has lines and numbers printed on both magnetic surfaces to help organize your inserts, but cannot seem to find where to purchase it or if it is still made.

Ideas.....

 

[Idaholewis]

Silly question. What do you guys use to keep your front sight inserts organized? I’ve got about 30 and they are easy to misplace. Currently keep them in ‘powder’ vials, but that is rather unorganized. Buffalo Arms used to have a vinyl wallet with clear pockets that never seemed to be in stock and now I don’t see it at all. MVA has a small plastic box (an ‘Insert Caddy’) with a magnetic strip to hold the inserts in place. Looks like it would easily break. Have also seen a similar red case also with magnets on both halves, and it has lines and numbers printed on both magnetic surfaces to help organize your inserts, but cannot seem to find where to purchase it or if it is still made.

Ideas.....

Here is what i use, Nothing more that a Cheap Refrigerator Magnet. Just use a Refrigerator Magnet Glued inside a nice flip top box of your choice :yeah: Holds these little Steel inserts like Glue.