Best Primer?

[MrChristopher]

I just bought my first muzzleloader a month or so ago, a CVA Wolf. I'm pretty excited about it. I took it out for some shooting this past weekend and was having trouble hitting bullseye at 25 yards. The shots were grouping on the target but they wouldn't hit bullseye.

Anyway...my question is.....is there a real difference between shot shell 209 primers and the 209 primers made specifically for muzzleloading?

The ones I am currently using are the Federal 209A primers. I got these because that's all the store had. Are these considered a good primer?

On a side note...I'm shooting 2 White Hot pellets and a 250 gr Hornady SST Sabot. Is this considered an acceptable combination? It came down to Hornady or Powerbelt at the store and I read more bad reviews about powerbelts than anything.

I'm hoping for a decent group at 100 yards. I'll be mainly deer hunting in a bush so shots won't be very far when I get a chance.

 

[Anonymous]

Your primer is good. It's the hottest one available. Your accuracy may not acceptable because of the powder brand you chose. The top / most popular powders are Blackhorn 209, Pyrodex, Goex blackpowder and 777. Loose powder works much better than pellets, when narrowing shot groups on paper.

Also, did you clean that new barrel well? The first cleaning of your Spanish barrel, should be with a strong solvent. CVA guns are shipped here by boat and the bores are coated to prevent rust from the salty environment. Be sure all that stuff is out of your barrel, or else when fired repeately and baked-in, it becomes a real bugger to get out.

Lastly, go to the range with another sabot/bullet..... something different. Many muzzleloaders are picky shooters and sometimes the best accuracy doesn't occur until you purchased 3-4 different bullets. Same with the plastic sabots. Educate yourself on the different sabot brands and the thicknesses available to you. Best to have a backup plan with plastic sabots too.

 

[MrChristopher]

Your primer is good. It's the hottest one available. Your accuracy may not acceptable because of the powder brand you chose. The top / most popular powders are Blackhorn 209, Pyrodex, Goex blackpowder and 777. Loose powder works much better than pellets, when narrowing shot groups on paper.

Also, did you clean that new barrel well? The first cleaning of your Spanish barrel, should be with a strong solvent. CVA guns are shipped here by boat and the bores are coated to prevent rust from the salty environment. Be sure all that stuff is out of your barrel, or else when fired repeately and baked-in, it becomes a real bugger to get out.

Lastly, go to the range with another sabot/bullet..... something different. Many muzzleloaders are picky shooters and sometimes the best accuracy doesn't occur until you purchased 3-4 different bullets. Same with the plastic sabots. Educate yourself on the different sabot brands and the thicknesses available to you. Best to have a backup plan with plastic sabots too.

Thanks for the advice. I chose white hots because it was between them and another brand. They didn't carry any loose powder. I forgot what the other brand was but the place was recommending the white hots over this other brand.

I did not clean the barrel before shooting! I did check it tho before shooting and it looked really clean.

Will the barrel be damaged or ruined if I fired it before cleaning? I did give it a really good clean the same day when I was done and it looks clean. I don't see any build up of anything.(I didnt have a real hard time cleaning it that night tho.) So ya....hopefully it's not damaged.

Even the manual says to clean the shipping grease out, I don't know why I missed that, I thought I had just about memorized that thing!

I also chose the hornady sabots because it was between them and powerbelts and I had read better things about the hornady's. The local gun shops around don't seem to have a wide selection of muzzleloading items, it's not a huge thing where I live I guess.

 

[rangerod]

You may have to order bullets and sabots online from somewhere like Cabelas. They have a pretty wide selection. Another place I have ordered before is Midsouth shooters supply. Maybe other forum members can recommend other places to order.

 

[MrChristopher]

I might try that. I'm going to try my combination one more time and clean between shots. I had read about swabbing between shots while sighting in but I wasn't doing it right or a good enough job during my first time shooting.

I've read alot of good things about white hots and hornady's but it seems there's not much said about them on this forum. I wish I had come across this site before I bought ammo!

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

When you remove the spent primer, is it sooty black? or clean except for the end where the flame comes out?

If sooty, Winchester 209 primers (a tad longer than most primers) may cure that so the primers come out clean which means no blow back around the primer. W209's cured my 2 CVA rifles.


Rifle scoped? I'm not understanding whey you say the shots grouped but didn't hit the bullseye. Did you make adjustments to the sights or scope but bullet impact didn't change?

 

[MrChristopher]

When you remove the spent primer, is it sooty black? or clean except for the end where the flame comes out?

If sooty, Winchester 209 primers (a tad longer than most primers) may cure that so the primers come out clean which means no blow back around the primer. W209's cured my 2 CVA rifles.


Rifle scoped? I'm not understanding whey you say the shots grouped but didn't hit the bullseye. Did you make adjustments to the sights or scope but bullet impact didn't change?

I'll pay more attention to the primers next time I shoot but I think they looked OK.

You are right about bullet impact. I only needed to make adjustments for windage, elevation was fine. Even tho I was adjusting my scope the bullets seemed to still hit about 6-8 inches to the right of the bullseye(even put a bullet through a bullet hole). They weren't all over the place. I didn't have time to make huge adjustments, but I hope the scope is ok, it seemed ok last year on my rifle.


I also wasn't swabbing good enough between shots, and as I mentioned earlier I forgot to clean the gun before the first shot(I really hope this didn't harm the barrel).

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I doubt you did damage to your barreI, I did the same with my first muzzleloader. I even forgot to clean it one time after a session with Pyrodex pellets , that leaves a mess (pitted my barrel) but that rifle still shoots very well. With a good cleaning with a product, for example, JB bore paste (many others too), you will be just fine.

Have you ever tried shooting a group, then hold the crosshairs on the bullseye, then move the adjustment knobs til the crosshairs settle over the group. Works very well if you can hold the rifle steady while doing it.

209 primers for muzzleloaders (milder primer, reduced charge) are made to help reduce the crud buildup /crud ring in the barrel where the powder/bullet sit, which should make for easier swabbing between shots. The only powder I can think of where you wouldn't want to use them, is BlackHorn 209, this powder needs a hot primer like your Federals.

Are the Hornady sabots the red easy loads? Came packaged with the SST's? I personally haven't had much success with easy load sabots but many have. The 250gr SST's get mixed reviews, seems like more positive then negative, and most of the reviews, the deer was recovered. I have shot them at the range and they are accurate for me (with the right sabot), I've never used them for hunting, I like my solid copper bullets for deer

 

[MrChristopher]

I plan to try that crosshair trick next time I go out. I was trying it but couldn't hold the gun steady enough.

Thinking back I also might have been adjusting my scope wrong(idiot I know). I've never done much scoping adjusting since I've always had real good luck with the Bushnell boresighter I have.

How long did you leave your barrel dirty for it to get pitted? The only I reason I ask is because I did my shooting last Saturday(fired 6 shots total) and cleaned the gun that night. I had a hell of a time trying to get it clean(a couple problems were cutting the cleaning patches too small and not having a brush to loosen things up). I got it reasonably clean but went to the gun shop on Monday and got myself a brush and finished cleaning it that night. Brush seemed to make it easier along with proper sized patches! Not sure if that's enough time for rust or pitting to form. I've just read that the powders can be very corrosive so it was on my mind to get it clean as soon as I could.

The hornady's are the ones with the red sabots. 250 gr. SST. I chose them because of the good reviews on cabela's and bass pro etc...

 

[MrChristopher]

Forgot to ask....could the federals be too hot of a primer? Again I got them because that's all the place carried....They didn't carry specific muzzleloading primers.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I think I left it for a couple of weeks or more :bored: , I can't remember what happened but when I pulled it out to go shooting, I looked at it and said "Uh-oh.....that's not good", but what do ya do, lesson learned. If you clean your rifle the same day, you should be fine. I was using Pyrodex, which is very corrosive so the sooner the better.

I've never shot White Hots so I'm not sure how bad of a crud ring will form with them using a hot primer. One good thing about a thorough swabbing between shots is giving your barrel a chance to cool between shots, barrel heat can make accuracy go south when shooting with sabots.

If you think your bullet/sabot combo is loading too loose, not much resistance when loading, you could try knurling the bullet up some. This shows knurling for a full bore bullet but the same applies for the bullet going back into the sabot. I knurl all my bullets, for me, I see better accuracy at the range.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27261&p=209985&hilit=knurling+bullet#p209985

 

[WV Hunter]

Sounds to me like you just need to adjust your scope. :huh?:
The SST's are fine bullets, you can always tinker with others later if you want. I would recommend moving to a loose powder at some point, but you can get on target and hunting just fine with what you have.

Give your rifle a good scrubbing, then go shoot again and adjust accordingly. Pay attn to the primer after shooting, if you are getting blowby you may want to try the W209's. Make sure to clean your breechplug well after each use.

 

[MrChristopher]

The bullets/sabots seem to be loading fine. Is it my first time ever firing a muzzleloader tho so I have nothing to compare it to.

There was a definately a decent crud ring even just after the first shot. I took the breech plug out to look.




I think scope adjustment is what I need. Like I said earlier I think I was adjusting it opposite of what was needed(embarrassing rookie mistake for sure).

I will pay attention to the primers next time. I might buy some other primers anyways, they're cheap enough...I think $5 for a pack of 100 where I got mine. I might even try a muzzleloader specific primer and see what happens.


I did give the breech plug a good clean. Wiped it down with a patch and used a small needle to clean inside the hole. Should the breech plug be as clean as new after cleaning or is it ok if theres a bit of black staining on it?

Sorry for all the questions everyone.......I'm still so new to this and don't wanna make too many more rookie mistakes. It's a whole different ball game than rifle hunting if you ask me! Not saying that's a bad thing tho!

 

[GM54-120]

Breach plug flash channel should be cleaned like this.

Regular Wolf breach plug is 3mm. The Blackhorn209 breach plug is 1/8" Buy the correct sized drill bit and a pin vice. You can also use a hex head drill bit and a nut driver handle if needed. The hex head is fairly easy to grab by hand.

Leave the flash HOLE alone. Don't run anything abrasive through it.

 

[WV Hunter]

GM54 brings up another point. If you plan to move to BH209 powder, its recommended to get the BH209 breechplug.
If you choose to stay with what you are shooting, or use pyrodex, T7, or real black powder ... the BP you have should work great. I would probably swab between shots if using anything other than BH209. No need to swab with that. The crud ring may not be as bad if you use pyrodex or real black powder.

 

[Saltner]

I used the Fiocchi 616 primers that are the most powerful of the Fiocchi, i wanted to try the Martignoni Nobel Sport U-688 that will classify the strongest that exist.
Ever since I have had even better results!

 

[SteveH]

Based on your original question, it seems you may in fact want to switch to a ML specific primer, assuming you want to keep using the White Hot pellets. A lot of people here will recommend that you switch to loose powder (rightly so IMO) but if you really like the simplicity of pellets, I believe that you are better off with the milder primers. This is definitely the case when using 777 pellets and I think it is likely also true with the White Hots.

 

[GM54-120]

You may want to try standard 209 primers instead of mags. Im not sure if the reduced power 209s like WinT7s or KleanBore MLs are a good idea with WhiteHots.

IIRC Whitehots need a tiny bit more heat than Triple7 pellets to ignite and much more than Pyrodex pellets according to the MSDS sheets. Chemically they are very similar to Triple7.

One thing i can tell you for sure is Whitehots are the most expensive propellant per shot assuming a 2 pellet load. That two pellet load is not very fast either. Somewhere between 80-90gr of most loose sub powders will beat it in FPS.

 

[MrChristopher]

Wow this is all great information. Thanks everyone.

I'm seriously debating the BH209. It seems to be loved by everyone. I might do the switch once the white hots are used up. I won't be shooting great distances during hunting season so I imagine I'll be ok for this year.

If I stick with pellets(and I at least likely will for this year), is there any advantage to white hots over Triple7? Again I was just going by what the store recommended. I did my research on White Hots and they have good reviews. The place also didn't carry loose powder......

I'm gonna have to put everything on hold for a few weeks tho....I noticed tonight that there is some damage inside the barrel. Looks like a gouge in the rifling close to the muzzle. I'm taking back into the store tomorrow and it's being shipped out for warranty repair/replacement.

Hopefully I get it back for deer season!

 

[WV Hunter]

Wow this is all great information. Thanks everyone.

I'm seriously debating the BH209. It seems to be loved by everyone. I might do the switch once the white hots are used up. I won't be shooting great distances during hunting season so I imagine I'll be ok for this year.

If I stick with pellets(and I at least likely will for this year), is there any advantage to white hots over Triple7? Again I was just going by what the store recommended. I did my research on White Hots and they have good reviews. The place also didn't carry loose powder......

I'm gonna have to put everything on hold for a few weeks tho....I noticed tonight that there is some damage inside the barrel. Looks like a gouge in the rifling close to the muzzle. I'm taking back into the store tomorrow and it's being shipped out for warranty repair/replacement.

Hopefully I get it back for deer season!

You should be fine with the white hots for now. I'd be more concerned about shipping my rifle off right now. I don't know when your season starts but unless they can guarantee you will have it back in time, I think I'd see about having the shop note the issue and you keep the gun through the season. It doesn't sound like its affecting how it shoots.