Black Horn / Knight ULight / Breach Plug / Issue?

[MJFlores]

Me again,

I thought I had solved my Ulight issues witha new knight plug, still planning on getting a custom plug by Bestill (?) Anyway, 100 grains of Blackhorn, 300 grain XTP, and Win 209 primer this am with a buck about 8 feel away and snap...hang fire. Long enough for me to dig in my pocket for another primer when it went boom with a cloud of smoke that sent the deer running. Is this a know issue with BH? Or Knights breech plugs? What do I change so this never happens again. New England woods, it's a lot of work to get a deer in that close just to have your equipment fail you.

 

[sabotloader]

Me again,

I thought I had solved my Ulight issues witha new knight plug, still planning on getting a custom plug by Bestill (?) Anyway, 100 grains of Blackhorn, 300 grain XTP, and Win 209 primer this am with a buck about 8 feel away and snap...hang fire. Long enough for me to dig in my pocket for another primer when it went boom with a cloud of smoke that sent the deer running. Is this a know issue with BH? Or Knights breech plugs? What do I change so this never happens again. New England woods, it's a lot of work to get a deer in that close just to have your equipment fail you.

I do not shoot a lot of BH but I do know a lot of people that do without problems if'n you do your part.

The Lehigh/Knight BP was designed with BH in mind.

Some questions for you... is this your first experience with a hang fire? How many shots have you taken with this setup?

Since BH is a progressive burning powder there are some things you need to make sure of. The bullet must be or should be seated snuggly on the powder other wise you might experience a slow burn or even no burn.

What do your shot primers look like after shooting a load - is there a lot of blow back material on or around the primer case.

This is a picture of the spent primers from my ULIte - sorry it is a bit blurry???



Then the last thing I would check with you, are you drilling the 'flash channel' in the breech plug. Typically you do not need to do anything with the 'flash hole'.



Really hope you do find the answer...

 

[Widude]

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/primers/


Shouldn't happen. Firmly seated? Regular primer not the 'reduced flash' type? My Knights are 110% reliable with a CCIM primer and a firm seating of the bullet on the charge. I have even shot the older orange disc Knights this way.

I'd ensure you have a clear flash channel, use the hottest primers for added insurance. Sort things out at the range. Make sure no oils are present.

 

[MJFlores]

It happened once or twice from the bench, figure it was fouling. Every shooting session I clean the plug with a dril bit and make sure I can see through it. When loading I Make sure the bullet is well seated on the powder. Very aggravated as this cost me meat. My old YC always went bang immediately after squeezing the trigger. Wondreing if I need yet anoter plug, or change powder to Pyrodex, or something else?

 

[sparkman]

Try either CCI of Federal MAGNUM primers..

 

[sabotloader]

It happened once or twice from the bench, figure it was fouling. Every shooting session I clean the plug with a dril bit and make sure I can see through it. When loading I Make sure the bullet is well seated on the powder. Very aggravated as this cost me meat. My old YC always went bang immediately after squeezing the trigger. Wondreing if I need yet anoter plug, or change powder to Pyrodex, or something else?

I really wish I could be more help but without being there it is really hard to suggest options.

Still wondering about the primers that come out after a shot... Are they clean or is there blow back on them. The plug was designed to use the W209 and will function normally with them, really no need for a Mag primer unless there is an undue amount of blow back dropping the ignition pressure of the load.

If you have another powder on hand maybe you should try a few shots with it and see what happens.

Is there any chance this last hang fire might have been caused by water in the bore or breech plug?

In fact if you can I would suggest a small test... take your rifle outside or in the garage load up a primer. Then place the muzzle near the ground and touch the primer off. You should see gas pressure out the muzzle moving the dust or small particle on the floor around.

Which brings me to another thought.... did you by chance pop a couple of primers to clear the BP before you loaded up this round that failed to ignite. Often after cleaning and storing the rifle vertical the flash hole can get plugged with bore fluids running back down and into the flash hole.

Again without being there - just grasping at thoughts...

 

[LarryBud]

All I can say is l've had shot about a dozen different Disc Extreme / Elite Knights and I've never had a FTF using a variety of powders but mostly BH 209.

I do use a Lehigh Plug and Win 209s, however, I've used a variety of primers for testing, never a FTF in about 1000 rounds.

Something is not right. Sabotloader has run down the usual suspects and I believe the Knight plug is made by Lehigh.

I do always pop a couple before loading. That may be an issue as mentioned above.

 

[ShawnT]

I am with Sabotloader.

What Primer did you use and What did the spent primer look like?

There were supposedly a few of these that were shipped out with a similar problem to yours and sealing up the primer corrected it.

If you are getting any blow by you may have a problem with BH. I have an Ultra Lite with Bare primer ignition. Mine was a very early ones so the Primer crush/seal was excellent with the original plug. I also shoot nothing but BH in this rifle and never had a fail to fire using Standard Blue Box Win209 primers. IF you have any leakage around that primer you will see black soot on the sides of the primer cup, compare yours to the picture Sabotloader posted. If so you just might only need a small shim to correct it. I have installed one of Bestill's plugs and can only say great things about it.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Every shooting session I clean the plug with a dril bit and make sure I can see through it

What size drill bit?

 

[bestill]

Every shooting session I clean the plug with a dril bit and make sure I can see through it

What size drill bit?

5/32

 

[MJFlores]

I believe the bit I use is a 5/32. Thanks for all replies. I've never popped a primer before loading, is that something everyone does? I use Winchester 209 primers. I do get some blow back but not as bad as my original plug. I suspect after more rounds through this plug it'll get bad like my other did. For now, they still drop out when I open the bolt and tilt the gun. To be clear, it wasn't a fail to fire. I had the buck directly underneath me, I put the cross hairs on him and squeezed. The primer snapped and he spooked a few feet and stopped, I took my right hand and began digging for a primer and the gun went off but at that time the cross hairs were no wear near the deer. Things happen fast so it's hard to say, but I bet it was a 10 second delay? maybe more I'm not sure. This breech plug has probably 20 rounds shot through it, and this did happen off the bench once with about a second and another about 3 seconds...sort of like a flint lock delay..a bit longer perhaps? The rest were fine so I just wrote it off as poor primers. I used primers from a fresh tray of 100 but from the same 1000 piece box. When I got home and simmered down I walked out to the range and cleared the barrel, it shot perfectly normal....figures.

The charge was fresh, I loaded the rifle last night....it was last cleaned a month or so ago but I pulled the plug, ran a few dry patches down, blew through the plug, loaded it and out it back in my safe muzzle down. I admit that I take deer hunting too seriously sometimes, this is REALLY bugging me! It was a "gimmee" shot...that deer should be hanging right now.

 

[a1smokepole]

As long as you have blow by around your primer you will never no when its going to do this with BH209. and sometime you can get a poi change from this also so it looks like shim time this will fix you up. and for the deer you will see him next time and he will be bigger.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I believe the bit I use is a 5/32... I've never popped a primer before loading, is that something everyone does?

I asked about the drill bit size just to make sure you weren't just cleaning out the flash hole with a tiny bit. My brother-in-law had a hang fire problem with his TC ProHunter, come to find out, he never drilled out the flash channel with a drill bit.

I always pop 3 primers before I load, to clear the breech plug and to foul the bore. This may be your problem.

When I got home and simmered down I walked out to the range and cleared the barrel, it shot perfectly normal....figures.

The charge was fresh, I loaded the rifle last night....it was last cleaned a month or so ago but I pulled the plug, ran a few dry patches down, blew through the plug, loaded it and out it back in my safe muzzle down. I admit that I take deer hunting too seriously sometimes, this is REALLY bugging me! It was a "gimmee" shot...that deer should be hanging right now.

That same thing happened to me but with a no fire. It's very frustrating but you will get it figured out.


For those that know, is this Knight breech plug similar in design to an older Knight breech plug like the Elite?
I'm having a hard time believing some blow-by will cause hang fires if the OP's breech plug is designed to shoot BH209. I have one rifle with terrible blow-by around the primer but it is a short plug like a TC Omega, it goes bang every time while shooting BH powder.

 

[bestill]

Shim for primer seal, use magnum primer and keep flame channel, flash hole clean.
Misfires will be gone.

Also i assume you disassemble bolt assembly and clean then lightly oil.
Had a friend who never cleaned his and firing pin was dragging.

After season contact me and fix you up with a great breech plug properly fitted in your rifle

 

[MJFlores]

Thanks bestill...thats my plan!

Ive onlt taken aprt the bolt once, after the first session firing it and it was really clean so I haven't since. The pin did fire the primer, and eventually the load. It just cooked in there before going off.

I'll reference those three measurement I saw you post and will let you know after season wraps up. After next weekend I'll be carrying my Model 70.

 

[bestill]

Rite on.
I had a misfire about in 2005 and in 2006 killed same buck he gained about 30". Misfire was a blessing in the end but i sure wasn't happy at time.
Im sure your like me if i pull trigger its to kill.
Have a blessed season

 

[Widude]

FWIW, every time I clean I take the Bolt apart & clean it inside & out too. One can never let the cleaning guard down when shooting black powder or the substitutes, even with minimal blowback.

 

[ShawnT]

I was thinking no fire not hang fire. As mentioned sealing up that primer pocket a little may correct it. Do you have a caliper to measure the primer crush?

But yes you should pop 2 or 3 primers to dry out the breech plug and make sure it is all clear. Before I load the rifle for a hunt, or at the range, the very first thing I do is swab the bore with a patch and usually with alcohol on it, then a dry patch. Then I take and run a Dry patch down all the way to the Breech plug and let it stay there and then load and pop one primer. Now push it back to the BP and remove it and look at the patch. I do that 3 times. The face of that patch should be burned completely away in that Ultralite with a Win209 primer. The Ramrod will not leave the bore but of course should be pointed in a safe direction. I am thinking that a little oil left in the BP soaked into the Powder and cause the delay fire.
But if you have very much leakage around the primer it can also cause that.

You should see patches like this when you pop a primer on a clean BP. Those primers all were fired in my Ultralite with a Knight plug. I now have Bestills plug and it is a truly amazing plug!


BDhunter,

They are similar but the new plug is longer and the one direct from Knight has a brazed in ventliner that cannot be removed.

Here is a picture of the 2 plugs. Left is the Knight/Lehigh and the one on the right is a Lehigh that would fit in an Elite or extreme.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Good info ShawnT, it's not too much longer but too bad they didn't make it shorter, I feel that's always better

 

[ShawnT]

Good info ShawnT, it's not too much longer but too bad they didn't make it shorter, I feel that's always better

The Bolt is different too, no adapter in the new one. Slot for Primer is cut right in the bolt. I think that is where most of the length difference is.
There is a recess in the powder side of the BP like in the Lehigh so the Primer flame don't really travel that much farther.

If it will burn patches like that, and it should, there is no doubt in my mind it will ignite Blackhorn. :wink: