Blackhorn -- 777ff

[ronlaughlin]

Yesterday shot 777ff. Today shot Blackhorn. Same range -- 150 yard. Same rifle -- 45 caliber Omega. Same primer --W209.

Same bullet both days -- 265g Fury STB sized to about 0.4503". This size loaded very easily with slight force.

Both days used -- Vegetable Fiber wad.

Yesterday it was 19°. Today it was 27°. Air seemed to be moving a bit more yesterday.

Yesterday load was 81 weighed grain 777ff; swabbing between shots. Aim was top bull.

Today load was 78 weighed grain Blackhorn; no swabbing. Aim was bottom bull.

 

[ingramjets]

so is the bottom group higher because the bh209 has more velocity?

 

[2701jim]

That's what I would think.

 

[ronlaughlin]

so is the bottom group higher because the bh209 has more velocity?

Good question. The Blackhorn charge was made 78g intentionally so to have the loads have the same velocity. It was hoped the 78g Blakhorn speed would equal the 81g 777ff speed.

It was actually quite shocking to see the Blackhorn shots hit so high. Another thing, the shooter felt the recoil of the Blackhorn load seemed more than the recoil of the 777ff load. Made the shooter think perhaps the Blackhorn load was producing more velocity.

Results are unexpected.

One thing is sure before your question is answered. More shooting is required. Aren't we lucky!

 

[ingramjets]

i was surprized too good shooting keep us informed thanks

 

[Henry Miles]

Increased recoil translates to muzzle rise. The extra kick can raise the muzzle and 'shoot higher'. Also happens with slower traveling heavier bullets because they take longer to travel in the barrel as it responds to recoil.

 

[Travis299]

FWIW I believe that a chrono would sort the problem/question on the powder difference.

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

From what I read on their load data tables, a three grain difference is too little to account for the different energetics of the powders. EG, 777FFg 80 grain (v) on a 290 grain Barnes is1537 FPS vs 1634 FPS for the BH 209, same charge. That is a significant difference that could impact things. I don't have a chrono myself, but use the load data tables to get a sense of where to start my experiment on getting similar velos from the two powders so I can use the cheaper one to practice...

 

[ronlaughlin]

Made it out to clock the loads.

The 81g weighed 777ff clocked at 1899 fps, 1904 fps, and 1896 fps. Average speed about ten feet from muzzle is 1899 fps.

The 78g weighed Blackhorn clocked at 2119 fps, 2136 fps, and 2106 fps. Average speed about ten feet from muzzle is 2119 fps.

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

So now the question is does 220 fps {CORRECTED, thanks HC} difference sufficiently explain the different points of impact. I’d also be very curious how much T7 it’d take to match the fps of the BH209

 

[WV Hunter]

You're the man Ron. Always providing us valuable info!

 

[HC]

220 fps difference I think.

 

[Coldaxent]

So why are the holes in the target so much larger from the Blackhorn than the 777? Looks like different bullets even different caliber to me. Just saying.

 

[ronlaughlin]

why are the holes in the target so much larger from the Blackhorn than the 777?

Believe it is because of two reasons.

1. Because the area of the 777 holes is near the bull where the cardboard backing is shot away, and mostly nonexistent, thus not able to support the paper that is the target, while the bullet cuts the hole. The area of the Blackhorn shots is where there is few previous holes in the backing from previous shots.

2. Because the day those bullets were shot using the 777, the paper got wet from snow melt in the bed of the truck, on the way home, and the wet holes became a tad smaller when they dried.


Good question. Be assured all holes in the target are made by the same kind of 45 caliber bullet -- the Fury 265g STB. It is a good bullet, accurate, easy to size, and it absolutely does not spring back.

 

[ronlaughlin]

So now the question is does 220 fps difference sufficiently explain the different points of impact.

Nothing else is different?
Once the speeds were measured, the difference in impact location made sense.

What is bothering me now, is how can the speed of the bullets shot using Blackhorn be so much faster than the bullets shot by the 777ff? It is 115g of 777ff compared to 105g Blackhorn. Doesn't seem possible.

The good thing is more shooting is required!

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

What is bothering me now, is how can the speed of the bullets shot using Blackhorn be so much faster than the bullets shot by the 777ff? It is 115g of 777ff compared to 105g Blackhorn. Doesn't seem possible.

Why is this a surprise? Both 777 and Blackhorn 209 have load data published that are consistent with the idea that BH209 is more energetic for the same volume of powder. I am not a chemist so I cannot claim to know why exactly but I thought the whole appeal of BH 209 was that it was cleaner (less swabbing) and faster than 777.

I haven't actually used BH209- only got my hands on it recently...but I am not sure I really understand what they big deal is. I don't consider swabbing a big deal, I've never exeperienced a crud ring problem and with 777 FFg only around 30 bucks a pound, nearly half the price of BH209. I bought a bottle to see what all the fuss is about, but my range sessions are just usually not that many shots that I consider the swabbing issue to be something that I need to avoid.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Why is this a surprise?

Because last summer these two powders were clocked, but the speed differences weren't near what they were today; then both had the same amount of powder. (see photos)

Am starting to wonder if the Blackhorn powder used today was contaminated in the powder measure by another powder?

 

[LHR]

Because last summer these two powders were clocked, but the speed differences weren't near what they were today; then both had the same amount of powder. (see photos)
Am starting to wonder if the Blackhorn powder used today was contaminated in the powder measure by another powder?

Different lot#’s on the two different BH209 targets?
Or possible difference in temperatures or both?

 

[ronlaughlin]

Yes, could be both.

It was -1° yesterday whilst clocking the loads. Between shots clock was in cabin as was me, and rifle, and powder, and primers. Doesn't explain why the Blackhorn speeds were so high.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Clocked two different lots of Blackhorn this morning.

Rifle is 45 caliber Omega. Bestill breech plug. Load is 78 weighed grain Blackhorn, vegetable fiber wad, 265g Fury STB sized way loose @ 0.4505", CCI shot gun primer.

lot 37 -- 2067 fps, 2067 fps, 2080 fps
Average speed is 2071 fps

lot 41 -- 1990 fps, 2005 fps, 2038 fps
Average speed is 2011 fps