Bullet selection for elk

[ElDiablo]

Get me the permit................... not in Colorado.

What? You wouldn’t know what to do with an iron-sighted full bore conical rifle?!

 

[ENCORE50A]

Its different in the field than on a hunting range. I bet you would miss out in the field shooting at 500yrds with no wind flags up or down hill. I believe that you can shoot your custom riffle at the riffle range 500 yards with multiple shots at target hunting you mostly have one shot to kill.

I guess you're not reading entirely my posts. I'm a hunter first, target shooter second.
I have over 400 legal whitetail harvests between the States and Canada. Most with a muzzleloader and I've been shooting them since 1973. I like my venison.

 

[BigBoresmokepole]

50 cal only

 

[ENCORE50A]

50 cal only

50cal only ??????

Most of my harvests have been with 50cal muzzleloaders if that's what you're implying????

 

[BigBoresmokepole]

400 wow you are a killing machine no wonder there not deer to found

 

[bronko220002]

My main concern with this thread, regardless of the OP's ability, is the fact that he is going to spend his hard earned $$ on a elk hunt during the rut. Any guide that can't regularly call in a bull during the rut and tells his clients they should be capable of a 400 to 500 yard shot is IMO not an elk hunting guide.

 

[Patched]

I read this far into the thread…pretty amusing…as with so many endeavors we pursue, they often evolve into an equipment race.

Hunting skills and physical fitness will contribute way more to a successful elk hunt than having the ultimate cross canyon laser launcher.

500yd guide service?….that’s a challenge with a half MOA 300Winmag under field conditions.

 

[MrTom]

I guess you're not reading entirely my posts. I'm a hunter first, target shooter second.
I have over 400 legal whitetail harvests between the States and Canada. Most with a muzzleloader and I've been shooting them since 1973. I like my venison.

I began deer hunting in 1966, gun hunting in 1969. I've too have killed a ton of whitetails and mulies on flat land or in wooded hill country, but elk, and yes I've taken a couple, on any terrain are the infamous whole other animal. That is why I asked about bullet function at long range. There's a huge difference between what a bullet will do to paper at 500 yards and what it might do to an elk at that distance. I'm not questioning whether you can shoot well at 500 yards Encore, I'm questioning what your bullet choice is capable of other than what's on paper. Your graphs are great for the target range, but elk hunters soon find out that the animals are nothing but perpetual motion and seldom give a hunter a whole lot of time to fiddle with knobs or wind direction to make their shooting machine good for a quick shot.

And while anyone might be a great shot at 1000 yards, or 500, if you are hunting above 6000 feet you'd better spend a couple weeks out there shooting at 500 yards to understand what thin air can do to a marvelously accurate gun's accuracy. Even those super duper high powered magnum rifles that shoot great at prairie level can deal a hunter fits a mile higher up and if they ain't shooting that super duper gun up at those elevations enough to understand the impact of thinner air then they should seek targets a whole heck of a lot closer. To complicate matters, daily weather conditions can change enough to actually screw up what one might have settled on IF he shot and resighted up yonder.

Yes, we see pictures and read of successful muzzie hunts here on MM, several within the last few years of elk take at ranges of maybe 200 yards. What we don't see or hear of are those elk hunts where someone decided to stretch a shot to 300 yards, hit poorly and wounded a beautiful animal with a muzzie. We don't even hear from those hunters in the same exact scenario who were using a centerfire. I guess my point is that what looks great on paper is only assumption as to what it can do to a live animal the size of an elk and there's only one way to remove any assumption. I respect the heck out of you desire to compete at that 1000 yards and to do so with the accuracy your gun allows you. I also respect the heck out of your hunting success using the bullets you use on deer, however if you are in any terrain other than where you've proven your bullets on deer on relatively flat land, like where you'll likely find elk during an early muzzie season out west, a lot of your info just doesn't properly pertain to this poster's questions.... you have no personal elk kill with a muzzie in the mountains to back it up. Sorry.

I take three to four deer each year here at home in rugged hill country with the muzzies. Year ago I spent falls in the mountains of Montana or Wyoming or Idaho or Colorado, with my 7mag and on two occasions shot elk using it. One [5/6] dropped on the spot because I shot it in the head at about 40 yards after I spent two hours playing hide and seek. The other [4/5] was hit very accurately in the kitchen, breaking both shoulders and destroying the lungs and heart at a distance of about 125 yards and it still went uphill over a hundred yards before dropping. Both animals were taken with handloads using 160 grain bonded bullets that performed flawlessly. Bottom line is that elk are not deer and even the most accurate rifle, muzzie, smokeless muzzie, centerfire, whatever, and shots are best taken inside of 200 yards to assure of the rifle's accuracy and to be humanely killed. If a guide cannot get a person inside of maybe 300 yards and then stalk, find a guide who can do this.

 

[bronko220002]

What? You wouldn’t know what to do with an iron-sighted full bore conical rifle?!

Now..now Diablo. No need to get nasty. I'd be willing to bet just about everyone on here has cut their teeth on an open sighted muzzy.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I began deer hunting in 1966, gun hunting in 1969. I've too have killed a ton of whitetails and mulies on flat land or in wooded hill country, but elk, and yes I've taken a couple, on any terrain are the infamous whole other animal. That is why I asked about bullet function at long range. There's a huge difference between what a bullet will do to paper at 500 yards and what it might do to an elk at that distance. I'm not questioning whether you can shoot well at 500 yards Encore, I'm questioning what your bullet choice is capable of other than what's on paper. Your graphs are great for the target range, but elk hunters soon find out that the animals are nothing but perpetual motion and seldom give a hunter a whole lot of time to fiddle with knobs or wind direction to make their shooting machine good for a quick shot............

Not sure if Luke is following this, but I'm pretty sure he could answer any of your questions about bullet performance with the XLD's. I believe if one goes to his web site, one would find that those bullets work exceptionally well on elk and at range.

However, for consideration, I wonder how many elk have been harvested with a round ball, a projectile that would just shoot a hole through the animal, if not stop within?
So, is it shot placement that matters most, or that a bullet must perform perfectly to a specific standard? Who sets the standard? In 60yrs of hunting and shooting, I've yet to find a "perfect bullet".

Yes, there are a lot of supposed hunters, that will take bad shots. It doesn't matter rather its shooting at a whitetail, elk, or a rabbit. There's also a lot of those same hunters that have more money than sense, which creates another issue. Its like Ken Johnston (R.I.P.) said about his rifles and clients............... most had more money than sense and would buy an Ultimate just to say they had one.

The OP stated that the guide would like him to be able to shoot 400 or 500yds. The OP stated: "I feel extremly comfortable in my abilitys out to that range." What he is looking for is a bullet, not rather anyone believes in hunting and shooting long distances.
Because the guide asked that, doesn't mean that's the only distances the OP may be required to shoot. Heck, his shot may end up being only 10'. I don't blame the OP for much involvement, as he's already expressed his abilities.

I'll ask, how much shooting do you do at 400 and 500yds with a muzzleloader? Because some of us, including the OP, have the confidence to shoot that distance, others who don't shoot long range have no clue. There's a number of hunters on this site that have harvested game at 400yds and beyond with a muzzleloader. Shot placement.

Use a range finder without question. Make sure that conditions are favorable for a long range shot. If the conditions are not favorable, don't take the shot.

 

[bronko220002]

475yds requires 16.8moa vertical adjustment, so that's a known. To shoot 500yds, you need to add 1.5moa to 475yds. Another known.

1moa at 475yds is 4.75" .5moa = 2.3"

4.75 + 2.3 = 7"

NOTE: No one should be shooting long range and not KNOW the distance. Its why range finders were invented.

Now wait a min Encore..I'm a bit confused. 12.2" between 475-500 yards is still 12.2" no matter how you look at it. And 12.2" at 500 yds = 2.3 MOA
Using the 83.6" at 475 the MOA adjsutment is 16.8 and the 95.8" drop at 500 the 18.3 MOA is correct on the chart. So a 1.5 MOA adjustment at 500 is close to 8". When I went to school 8" does not equal 12"!!
How then is 12.2 / 1.05 = 11.62; 11.62 / 5 = 2.3 MOA not 2.3" So at 500 yards 12.2" = 2.3 MOA (1 MOA at 500 yds = 5.25" add another .5 MOA (=2.8") and you only come up a total of 8". The MOA and drop figures just don't match up. They say figures don't lie....but?????
I just started playing and shooting long, well medium, range and its fun so either I'm not calculating correctly or something's amiss with that chart.

 

[ElDiablo]

Not sure if Luke is following this, but I'm pretty sure he could answer any of your questions about bullet performance with the XLD's. I believe if one goes to his web site, one would find that those bullets work exceptionally well on elk and at range.

Well…some real data would be wonderful. The last time we had this discussion about “400 yard elk bullets” (in a December thread), he said he had no data and was guessing based on reports from hunters…

 

[ENCORE50A]

Now wait a min Encore..I'm a bit confused or you're not using the correct figures. 12.2" between 475-500 yards is still 12.2" no matter how you look at it.
12.2 / 1.05 = 11.62; 11.62 / 5 = 2.3 MOA not 2.3"

Ok. Here's a chart without the drop from zero in inches.

1moa at 400yds is 4".

How much drop is there from 400yds to 425yds?

 

[ElDiablo]

However, for consideration, I wonder how many elk have been harvested with a round ball, a projectile that would just shoot a hole through the animal, if not stop within?
So, is it shot placement that matters most, or that a bullet must perform perfectly to a specific standard?

Better question is how many have been lost by round ball hunters. Of course, shot placement is critical but alone it doesn’t kill anything. The projectile has to have proper construction, weight and speed for effective terminal performance.

 

[bronko220002]

Ok. Here's a chart without the drop from zero in inches.

1moa at 400yds is 4".

How much drop is there from 400yds to 425yds?


View attachment 36015

1 MOA at 400 yds is actually 4.2" so, 4.2" x 22.8 = 95.8"
at 425 drop equals 1.05 x 4.25 x 25.3 = 112.9
so a difference of 17.1"
Do those numbers match up?

 

[ElDiablo]

No need to do any complicated math.

95.8” - 83.6= 12.2”

 

[ENCORE50A]

1 MOA at 400 yds is actually 4.2" so, 4.2" x 22.8 = 95.8"
at 425 drop equals 1.05 x 4.25 x 25.3 = 112.9
so a difference of 17.1"
Do those numbers match up?

Well is it 17" or 12"????? NOTE: THE LAST CHART IS NEW WITH LESS VELOCITY.

I guess we can use 1.047, but most are using 1.

If I need 22.8 minutes for 400yds, and I need 25.3 minutes for 425yds, what I need to reach from 400yds to 425yds is an additional 2.5moa.
400yds......... 4 x 1.047" = 4.188" x 2 + 8.376" + 4.188" / 2 = 2.094" + 8.376" = 10.47" additional elevation.

If one was to use 1" as a MOA, then 10" more elevation is required.

 

[MrTom]

"Does anyone have any real life experiance with either of these on elk at longer distance and if so how did it perform?"

The above was the question using these 2 bullets.... "fury startip in 275 grain and the arrowhead XLD 300 grain", in the opening post..So far the answer is no, so why have all this extra argument about unproven stuff based on paper? If anyone has proof, like a picture or video of an actual elk kill at 500 yards or greater using either of the mentioned bullets, using a muzzie, out west, please speak up.

This is what ruins the credibility of this site. Hijack the thread with nothing more than arguement about either bullet's drop rate on and completely ignore his concerns of whether either bullet has been used in a muzzie on elk at longer ranges instead of answering the poor guy's question. Three pages of argument over what? Bullet drop? Did he even specifically ask about it other than to hint that he was told to be prepared to shoot at 400 to 500 yards?

This stuff happens too much here. Can't a question get answered without all this "I can do this" and "this is what the chart says" paper crap.

 

[bronko220002]

Well is it 17" or 12"????? NOTE: THE LAST CHART IS NEW WITH LESS VELOCITY.

I guess we can use 1.047, but most are using 1.

If I need 22.8 minutes for 400yds, and I need 25.3 minutes for 425yds, what I need to reach from 400yds to 425yds is an additional 2.5moa.
400yds......... 4 x 1.047" = 4.188" x 2 + 8.376" + 4.188" / 2 = 2.094" + 8.376" = 10.47" additional elevation.

If one was to use 1" as a MOA, then 10" more elevation is required.

I think thats where our difference is coming in. I'm not calculating the difference from 400 to 425 yards. I'm calculating th drop distance from 100 yards for each distance.
Try doing that and see what you come uo with.

 

[ENCORE50A]

I think thats where our difference is coming in. I'm not calculating the difference from 400 to 425 yards. I'm calculating th drop distance from 100 yards for each distance.
Try doing that and see what you come uo with.

Yes sir I agree.
This whole extended conversation started about a ranging error of just 25yds causing a complete miss. It's also odd to me, that out west range finders don't work properly.