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Clean smokeless powders

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jims

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For those of you that have used smokeless powders in your smokeless muzzleloaders what have you found to be the cleanest burning and how was accuracy?
 

HV-Muzzleloaders

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For low pressure loads designed for the Savage 10ML, Accurate 2015.

For high pressure/high velocity loads in the Brux Light Varmint profile barrel, IMR4198.

Either can be accurate with the right bullet and weight of powder.
 

ENCORE50A

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I shoot both Benchmark and 8208. Not sure what you might mean about "cleanest burning", but I have no problem with either being dirty. Accuracy from my rifle is second to none with either propellant.
 

GM54-120

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Ive never seen anything cleaner than N120 in the slower powders. 58gr or less of N120 will match or beat the max load of 2015 in speed with upto a 300gr bullet. 63-65 of Re7 will pretty much equal 2015 with a peak that is still extremely safe and sabot friendly. It is dirty though.

4198 was never as popular in the 50s but its peak is also quite low. Its quite good in the 45s. In a 45 with 60gr/200gr bullet it wont even break 29Kpsi. That is nothing for even a small shank Pacnor.
 
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D55

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I have noticed when shooting sabot-less that when I get the most consistent loading pressure ie 1 hand push and it is smooth that I am in a node that burns clean. I think you can hit 3 different nodes with 4198 if you have enough barrel shank for the upper one and might possibly need a wad for the lower.
 

GM54-120

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If you ever get the chance, compare a 200gr and 250gr 40cal in sabots using the same amount of 4198. Shoot them over a chrono on the same day under the same conditions. Personally ive never really liked 4198 with a 200gr. N120 just whoops it hard and Re7 is just as good or better. Step up to a 250gr though and 4198 will start to come alive from the data ive seen posted.
 
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D55

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I shot those 2 with same 56gr H4198 a few yrs. ago with 200gr TC shockwave and hlb and 250 Fury and hlb mv was 2430av with the 200gr bullet and 2465 with the 250gr. POI was 1"to the right using the 250gr elev. the same. Both bullet combos were very effective on deer. I have since moved on to strictly sabot-less .
 

GM54-120

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Your speeds prove my point. The 250gr was just as fast. 4198 is not very efficient with a 200gr. Sure wish TGinPA was still with us and doing traces. I would love to see more data.
 

jims

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VV 120 I think has been my cleanest burning powder.
 
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jims

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TG's family gave me all his binders on his traces. I have them for historical purposes. Would like them to go to GM54 if they would assist you in any way for sharing.
 

GM54-120

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Are you saying you got hard copies of his traces?
 

Danno

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I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned VV N110. It is every bit as clean burning as N120, if not
cleaner. Accuracy is great in both .50's and .45's. The limiting factor is bullet weight and amount used to ensure one doesn't go over pressure. Loads of 42gr N110, 250gr bullets for the .50 and
35gr N110, 195-200gr bullets for the .45 will easily put a deer down out to 150 yards. Personally,
I rarely got a shot past 100 yards.
 
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GM54-120

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I shoot mostly N110 in my NULA with upto a 250gr bullet. Its just a little rough on sabots. No problem at all though with a 225gr bullet. Even Savage has lowered the max load data for N110 to 41gr and no longer recommends it for a 300gr. Otherwise its a super good, reliable and unbelievably clean powder. Even loads in the 39gr range produce good fps with a 250gr. You gain very little going upto 41gr.

Really hard to beat N120 for the 300gr bullets if you want good speed without a ton of powder. 58gr of N120 will match or beat 63gr of Re7 in speed with only a small increase in peak.
 

jims

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GM54 I have 11 of his binders. They have what I think are his PTs. Powders and bullets used etc. Also some actual targets he shot. He shot my .375 SML, one of the more rare diameters and not much other PTs out there on that. Most of the info is on .50s and .45s as I recall. I have several of his deer guns, SMLs and a TarHunt shotgun.
 

HV-Muzzleloaders

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If you ever get the chance, compare a 200gr and 250gr 40cal in sabots using the same amount of 4198. Shoot them over a chrono on the same day under the same conditions. Personally ive never really liked 4198 with a 200gr. N120 just whoops it hard and Re7 is just as good or better. Step up to a 250gr though and 4198 will start to come alive from the data ive seen posted.
What kind (brand) of sabot do you recommend for the 250 grain 40 cal bullet?
I have some Harvester brand High Pressure sabots, but they do not look long enough for the 250 grain bullet.

.
 

GM54-120

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The guys are using the Harvester 45x40 light blues with the Fury 250s. The MMP tans dont hold up as well to heavy loads. None of them work well if you mean 50x40s. I would go straight to either 4198 or Re7 at around 56gr or so. Maybe slightly more using Re7. IMO i dont think any of them will handle a whole lot more than that.
 

SW

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Its interesting that in the second Savage 10ML2 Owner’s Manual that the VV110 loads were 44g +/- 2gs for 250 and 300g bullets. So, 46g VV110 with a 300g XTP/SST was a “book” load.

So, what happened? SS barrels happened. They looked like the rifling was chiseled in. Horrible! Normal loads for the very smooth CM barrels were shredding sabots in the SS barrels. Fire lapping using 400 or 440 lapping paste in boiled 385g Buffalo bullets using 30g equavalent sub pellets (below 500’/sec) could smooth the rifling very well. A SS barrel that was shredding sabots at 43-44g could easily shoot 47g VV110.

The 3 cleanest powders I’ve found are VV110, 120 and 2015.
 

GM54-120

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Ive shot N110 for hours at a time in my NULA. When you go to clean it you just cant believe how little fouling is in the bore. N120 is nearly as clean. In that butter smooth barrel ive never blow a sabot and even MMP shorts ive recovered looked fine after shooting upto a Parker 275gr.

BUT N110 does peak quite high and peaks fast. A mid range book load with a 250gr bullet can easily hit 35kspi. Totally safe in a Savage but its much rougher on sabots than say......SR4759/250-300gr or N120 with a 300gr.
 

HV-Muzzleloaders

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Ive never seen anything cleaner than N120 in the slower powders. 58gr or less of N120 will match or beat the max load of 2015 in speed with upto a 300gr bullet. 63-65 of Re7 will pretty much equal 2015 with a peak that is still extremely safe and sabot friendly. It is dirty though.

4198 was never as popular in the 50s but its peak is also quite low. Its quite good in the 45s. In a 45 with 60gr/200gr bullet it wont even break 29Kpsi. That is nothing for even a small shank Pacnor.

What would be the pressure for 58 grains of N120 and a 300 grain bullet?
 

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