COLORADO ELK AND THE WOLF

[nocomike]

The pro wolf/anti hunting/ANTI GUN/leftists file lawsuits EVERY time a state tries to bring a wolf season into effect to manage the population. And of course they put the issue in front of a liberal judge and we all know the outcome of that case. (And then the lawyers get to bill the tax-payers).

What chaps me is that there would be no ungulates for a wolf to even live off of if it were not for the North American Game Conservation Model, which is SOLELY the result of sportsman's efforts and MONEY.

The wolf is not even remotely at risk of being "exterminated", which implies going extinct. There are plenty of wolves alive and thriving in Canada and Alaska in areas where their presence is tolerable. Not to mention the population in Europe, and Asia. If you think it is okay to bring wolves into my state (Colorado), how about we bring a few hundred to Indiana and see how that fiasco would play out? Maybe a couple hundred grizzly bears as well?

 

[dbowling]

We have thousands of coyotes/raccoons/bobcats that do their share, the thing is they(WOLVES) were already exterminated that's why they were reintroduced because they were/are supposed to be there..so its ok to totally wipe out a native species because we have made it to where they cant survive on game available.. whats a shame is we cant see its our fault we have made it the way it is, can cry about what they do all you want but the reason its the way it is is our fault.
I dont believe the big wolves are native to Indiana but if they were then it would be fine with me..we have no problem reintroducing Elk to Kentucky, why because we get to hunt them its to OUR benefit.
If it wasn't for man we wouldn't need the North American Conservation Model, Rocky Mountain Elk Federation or any other conservation group, we are the root of all conservation issues not the animals,same as we are destroying out ocean resources for our own benefits. Sorry said I wasn't going to say anymore I apologize.

 

[nocomike]

We have thousands of coyotes/raccoons/bobcats that do their share, the thing is they(WOLVES) were already exterminated that's why they were reintroduced because they were/are supposed to be there..so its ok to totally wipe out a native species because we have made it to where they cant survive on game available.. whats a shame is we cant see its our fault we have made it the way it is, can cry about what they do all you want but the reason its the way it is is our fault.
I dont believe the big wolves are native to Indiana but if they were then it would be fine with me..we have no problem reintroducing Elk to Kentucky, why because we get to hunt them its to OUR benefit.
If it wasn't for man we wouldn't need the North American Conservation Model, Rocky Mountain Elk Federation or any other conservation group, we are the root of all conservation issues not the animals,same as we are destroying out ocean resources for our own benefits. Sorry said I wasn't going to say anymore I apologize.

The Colorado Parks and Wildlife (formerly the Division of Wildlife) has stated their position very clearly, regarding any ballot-forced initiative regarding wolves. The wildlife biologists most familiar with all of the myriad considerations say it is a BAD IDEA to introduce Canadian wolves to Colorado. (I say invasive species because the wolf indigenous to Colorado is NOT the larger Canadian sub species, but a smaller species that is likely EXTINCT)

I tend to believe matters such as the management of wildlife is better left to the "experts" and not ideologues; especially ideologues with "other' agendas.

If one were to adhere to the ideology you espouse, dbowling, then I would have to walk my children to school with a 12 guage pumpgun loaded with buck and slugs because the part of Colorado I live in is FORMER grizzly bear habitat. Thankfully, rational men that settled this country concluded that grizzly bears in close proximity to human beings was not a good idea. But those are the kinds of decisions you see made when human life and well-being is placed ahead of animals.

I certainly do not expect to change your mind, dbowling, so I guess this is one matter we simply disagree on. I have enjoyed your contributions to this forum and appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge regarding muzzleloaders, and I have no doubt I would enjoy your company if I were ever so fortunate as to share a hunting camp with you.

One last point I would mention, having nothing to do with wolves. Do you find it interesting in the least that none of these pro wolf/anti gun/leftists are clamoring for the American Bison to be re-established to it's former range and numbers? Estimates place the bison population at 30 MILLION before their catastrophic decline. Odd the lowly bison doesn't warrant the same concern or consideration as the wolf...(cue sarcastic emoge)

 

[Walkingeagle]

I’ve spent my life around wolves. Shot only 3 of them, and they are open for resident hunting from the start of any big game season till the end of the following spring black bear season, in crown land. Private land is different and classed under predator control.
I like hunting in wolf country and hearing them howl at night, but they do impact wildlife. The elk don't call as much in wolf country, and calves/fawns take a beating, but we have trappers actively working, as well resident hunters and predator control, so its not like we are overrun.
Wolves are where it is wild!
Walk

 

[nocomike]

I’ve spent my life around wolves. Shot only 3 of them, and they are open for resident hunting from the start of any big game season till the end of the following spring black bear season, in crown land. Private land is different and classed under predator control.
I like hunting in wolf country and hearing them howl at night, but they do impact wildlife. The elk don't call as much in wolf country, and calves/fawns take a beating, but we have trappers actively working, as well resident hunters and predator control, so its not like we are overrun.
Wolves are where it is wild!
Walk

I appreciate your thoughts. If you were to take a quick look at a population density map (for humans) of Colorado and our public lands you would likely conclude Colorado isn't quite "wild" enough for wolves.

 

[Idaholewis]

The wildlife biologists most familiar with all of the myriad considerations say it is a BAD IDEA to introduce Canadian wolves to Colorado. (I say invasive species because the wolf indigenous to Colorado is NOT the larger Canadian sub species, but a smaller species that is likely EXTINCT)

EXCELLENT POST nocomike!!! This particular piece REALLY rings through, According to Old Timers, life longers Here, These Wolves that were introduced here are NOT the Same Critters as the Old indigenous Idaho Wolf, These Transplants are GIANTS compared to them. These Elk and Moose learned throughout the years to live alongside the Much Smaller Native Wolf, But Then they Dump these GIANT Canadian Sub Species on our Native Wildlife, What a HORRIBLE, CHICKEN SH&T thing to have done!!!

I have witnessed these Elk & Moose STEADILY Decline In the 8-9 years that i have Lived here in North Idaho. The Moose were so Abundant that you could Spot them just about anywhere, Seeing a Moose walk down Main Street of Town would have Raised No Eyebrows, We had LOTS of Moose!!! Go find a Moose Now, NO JOKE! Go Find one, Tell me how that works out for ya? You are DARN lucky to See a Half Dozen Moose a Year Now, and That is Spending LOTS of time in the Woods. I have SWORE this is the LAST Year i will Purchase an Elk Tag Here in Idaho, i am DONE with it!

But look on the Bright side! It looks like you can Harvest 10 Wolves here per Calendar year, Think we have a Wolf Problem? WHAT A JOKE!!! This Topic makes my Blood Boil, When you live around it, and See the DEVASTATION, it REALLY RINGS HOME!!

 

[nocomike]

Lewis,
Idaho residents are lucky they are still allowed to legally trap predators and hunt black bears in the spring. The referendum vote in Colorado has taken trapping and spring bear hunts off the table just as it will likely mandate the introduction of an invasive apex predator. I hope that no lawsuits from the pro-wolf crowd are forthcoming to challenge the hunting seasons and harvest quotas that Idaho has established. It is truly painful to hear the feedback from my fellow Idaho sportsman speak of the tremendous impact wolves have had on their herds. Guides and outfitters that were afforded a livelihood and regular fellows that could count on a decent success percentage to put meat in the freezer have been denied that opportunity in many areas. But as you know, it is not just Idaho that is suffering from this ill conceived notion. Wisconsin, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, Washington, (am I missing any others?!) have been negatively and unnecessarily affected by this romantic, ideologically driven assessment that wolves are "needed" to restore the balance. The major voting population in Colorado isn't moving to introduce wolves to the Denver metropolitan area, of course. They are going to shove them down the throats of the Coloradoans that live on the west slope. (the west slope is considered to be west of the continental divide which roughly splits the rocky mountain range down the middle from north to south). It is an established fact that wolf management is a drain on resources for state agencies tasked with dealing with them even when there is a revenue stream from license sales. Idaho might well consider affording any hunter holding a deer, elk or moose tag the opportunity to kill any wolf on sight if desired.

 

[dbowling]

The Colorado Parks and Wildlife (formerly the Division of Wildlife) has stated their position very clearly, regarding any ballot-forced initiative regarding wolves. The wildlife biologists most familiar with all of the myriad considerations say it is a BAD IDEA to introduce Canadian wolves to Colorado. (I say invasive species because the wolf indigenous to Colorado is NOT the larger Canadian sub species, but a smaller species that is likely EXTINCT)

I tend to believe matters such as the management of wildlife is better left to the "experts" and not ideologues; especially ideologues with "other' agendas.

If one were to adhere to the ideology you espouse, dbowling, then I would have to walk my children to school with a 12 guage pumpgun loaded with buck and slugs because the part of Colorado I live in is FORMER grizzly bear habitat. Thankfully, rational men that settled this country concluded that grizzly bears in close proximity to human beings was not a good idea. But those are the kinds of decisions you see made when human life and well-being is placed ahead of animals.

I certainly do not expect to change your mind, dbowling, so I guess this is one matter we simply disagree on. I have enjoyed your contributions to this forum and appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge regarding muzzleloaders, and I have no doubt I would enjoy your company if I were ever so fortunate as to share a hunting camp with you.

One last point I would mention, having nothing to do with wolves. Do you find it interesting in the least that none of these pro wolf/anti gun/leftists are clamoring for the American Bison to be re-established to it's former range and numbers? Estimates place the bison population at 30 MILLION before their catastrophic decline. Odd the lowly bison doesn't warrant the same concern or consideration as the wolf...(cue sarcastic emoge)

The Colorado Parks and Wildlife (formerly the Division of Wildlife) has stated their position very clearly, regarding any ballot-forced initiative regarding wolves. The wildlife biologists most familiar with all of the myriad considerations say it is a BAD IDEA to introduce Canadian wolves to Colorado. (I say invasive species because the wolf indigenous to Colorado is NOT the larger Canadian sub species, but a smaller species that is likely EXTINCT)

The reason every animal on the planet that's extinct went that way is because rational human beings decided it was in humans best interest for them to disappear, be it to eat them, build railroads, dams etc.. my whole point for this whole conversation is WE are the ones at fault for all ecological/environmental problems, no animal other then man has done anything to hurt the natural balance of this planet.
I realize that areas are too populated with man for large predators to be populated in large numbers or at all, due to the encroachment of man most will never be able to be.

I certainly do not expect to change your mind, dbowling, so I guess this is one matter we simply disagree on. I have enjoyed your contributions to this forum and appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge regarding muzzleloaders, and I have no doubt I would enjoy your company if I were ever so fortunate as to share a hunting camp with you.

Ditto same here..good thing is we all have opinions and as long as we can discuss them in a sensible manner maybe somewhere a solution can be found to all problems. I enjoy these type of discussions as long as they dont devolve to name calling etc..

 

[Sideshow]

I totally disagree with you, its totally wrong to try to exterminate any naturally occurring species of animal, man is the one who has caused all problems relating to any animal.. Before us they were pretty much self regulating, the only reason most people care about what wolves do is because it effects the bottom line, less animals for them to kill..I'm no tree hugger by a long shot but we shouldn't blame the wolves, coyotes or cougars for doing what they were put here to do.. We are the only species that kills for sport besides maybe a housecat or mink/weasal in hen house.

Hello !! Its 2019 !!! Decisions were made and things were done by our forefathers years ago so they might survive in this land . Wolves by the way once pretty well covered everywhere on earth in one sub species or another FYI . The romantic notion of live and let live for dangerous predators is LONG GONE where our safety is concerned . As far as our forefathers go you think they were wrong huh ??? Bottom line is they CAME TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DEALING WITH INTIMATELY !!!!!!!!! With what kind of vision (ability to SEE) do you think our CONSTITUSION was written with ???. SAME THING !!! No short sightedness involved . To due less IS not becomeing of a man , especially after going to school and studying history up until TODAY . The ability to "FIGURE IT OUT" was also supposed to develop then . The time of the movie "Danceing with Wolves" is long gone . We got what we got . Lets not sit on our hands cuz "it didnt happen directly to me" . That is the TRUTH that is not being said . Sorry but so . Its about ALOT MORE than is being considered relevant here . That is the bottom line , period . There isnt time for an appology for that , especially in 2019 . I too have enjoyed your posts and find them valuable and enjoyable . I bet you are an asset to a hunting camp . Lets just not be short sighted on what is going on here in America today or the world . Its alot bigger than it appears and THEY GOTTA START SOMEWHERE . Dont abandon your sporting brothers when they need you most . By the way we were given dominion to be in charge of all of the animals here on earth by God himself . He didnt tell us not to be fruitfull and multiply . He knew we would eventually expand OUR territories to encroach on theirs . That decison was made so you could have the life you and yours now enjoy , by our forefathers . There is no rational to go back in time when it is today . Especially concerning the wolf !!! In Michigan sportsmen thought "im not gonna get involved . That'll never pass" . Now we got a mess . The game animals predators once fed on are gone . Didnt we owe them something ??? They were ALOT MORE than 1 species !!! All gone. Guess who's looking good for dinner now ??? Just cuz it isnt in the news dont make it not be happening regularly with human attack . Thats the truth about how THAT is handled . Ive witnessed that . And thats just a coyote . The ball got dropped badly by sportsmen and citizens alike by ignoreing such a laughable thing on a ballot. Funny isnt it.

 

[MrTom]

I'd like to clarify my earlier post. I'd condone controlled measures to keep the Minnesota wolf population in check. I do not condone illegal shooting or maiming of wolves by individuals taking things in their own hands. I understand their fever for doing so, but I do not condone it or partake in it.

Wolves, left to their own world, do not control their own numbers. They simply drive off others and those create new packs which breed up in numbers again. If wolves are going to introduced to any element there needs to be a solid measure involved to keep their numbers in check. Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan are prime examples of where do gooders thought we needed to bring back a prime predator without a plan to control their numbers and then vacated their efforts after the wolf numbers got out of hand.....and this includes the federal government. Now all three states have issues with deer densities approaching what the wolf densities were. People hunt deer and moose for food and that form of recreation has brought in hundreds of million dollars in revenue to each state each year in the past but each state is now seeing that money dropping off severely. Why? Because there are no animals to hunt in many areas of each state.

I understand fully the ecology of having wolves in our environment . What I don't understand is absurdity to having numbers of them so high that they are allowed to decimate another species or two because no one is allowed to control their numbers.

 

[flounder]

I'm not a moderator here but any time wolves come up it is hard for some people to have a civil conversation, name calling and fingerpointing usually run rampant. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
In Minnesota they introduced wolves and in a few years they started a hunt to control their population. Unfortunately, (in my opinion), the federal government put an end to the controlled hunt.
On the other hand, I am a lover of the forest. To me a lot of things I enjoy start and end in the forest. One thing I would also like to point out is that a lot of people don't realize how much damage the Whitetail deer to our forests. They are overpopulated in many areas and are becoming diseased due to this overpopulation.
It is hard to strike the right balance with so many opinions out there. A lot of the opinions are selfish if you think about it.
Ok, have at me.

 

[nocomike]

Do you know of any areas that whitetail deer are overpopulated and hunting is the primary means for controlling their numbers?

 

[flounder]

Absolutely, Southern MN would be one that I am most familiar with. Probably about as many killed by vehicles as by hunting here. I have had deer right in my yard all spring, summer and fall. Damn near impossible to have a garden.

 

[Walkingeagle]

I'm not a moderator here but any time wolves come up it is hard for some people to have a civil conversation, name calling and fingerpointing usually run rampant. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
In Minnesota they introduced wolves and in a few years they started a hunt to control their population. Unfortunately, (in my opinion), the federal government put an end to the controlled hunt.
On the other hand, I am a lover of the forest. To me a lot of things I enjoy start and end in the forest. One thing I would also like to point out is that a lot of people don't realize how much damage the Whitetail deer to our forests. They are overpopulated in many areas and are becoming diseased due to this overpopulation.
It is hard to strike the right balance with so many opinions out there. A lot of the opinions are selfish if you think about it.
Ok, have at me.

Nope, wont “have at” you. I fully and firmly agree that each is entitled their opinion, as it should be. I also agree that the wild places are not truly wild without the wildlife that makes them wild. Perhaps if the balance of predators was in place we wouldn’t have CWD? I don’t know, not a biologist nor an expert. Will never claim to be. I also know that uneducated bandwagons are very dangerous, and all you need to do is look at social media to confirm that statement.
Making claims as to the foresight of those living hundreds of years in the past is ridiculous. They were no more intelligent than people of today, and in fact less so. There is no possible way to predict the advancement of technology 30 years from now, let alone a few hundred years ahead. I do know, left unchecked, nature will balance itself, but it will be ugly, and we do have a responsibility with intervention the moment we make the first step of intervening in any aspect of the ecosystem. Which, by our mere existence, is unavoidable.
Fyi, it is estimated that approximately 95% of all living things to have ever resided on this planet have gone extinct. I highly doubt people were the cause of it all!
Walk

 

[HC]

In reply to nocomike. Here in Indiana we have several areas, urban areas around the larger cities, and some of the state parks. We also have an abundance of coyotes. The coyotes in and around the cities are a problem. The local TV news stations issues coyote warnings, concerning pets. As I have said before, if I’m deer hunting and see a coyote, it turns into a coyote hunt.

 

[Idaholewis]

One of MANY Sayings here is “Everyone involved in introducing/dumping these NON Native, GIANT Sub Specie Wolves on our Native Wildlife, Should be Smeared in Elk/Moose Guts and Chained to a Tree up in the Mountains here” I couldn’t agree more with this!! I would THOROUGHLY Enjoy Helping get them Chained/Settled in

 

[nocomike]

Absolutely, Southern MN would be one that I am most familiar with. Probably about as many killed by vehicles as by hunting here. I have had deer right in my yard all spring, summer and fall. Damn near impossible to have a garden.

Are there not enough hunters willing to kill deer in southern Minnesota? Are licenses unlimited in number for deer in southern Minnesota?

 

[MrTom]

SE Minnesota is a deer hunting mecca and breeding grounds for whitetails. One big factor that many don't consider is corn. Standing corn. Deer love the stuff and can spend LOTS of time in the fields. We've had a super wet year, including much of the fall when those fields should have been picked and there are thousands of acres of corn still standing. Deer find recluse in the corn and it can be murder trying to drive them out as they'll simply circle right back past drivers a few rows over and nobody knows any different. Another issue is lots of deer run right to urban areas when guns start popping. I live in Rochester, SE Minnesota, and we had snow yesterday. Today there are 11 sets of deer tracks along a BIKE path right next to our back yard.....and we can see some of the Mayo Clinic complex from our yard. Hard to get those deer back out in the country when they're safe where they are. I know of three car kills this summer on our street.

 

[nocomike]

SE Minnesota is a deer hunting mecca and breeding grounds for whitetails. One big factor that many don't consider is corn. Standing corn. Deer love the stuff and can spend LOTS of time in the fields. We've had a super wet year, including much of the fall when those fields should have been picked and there are thousands of acres of corn still standing. Deer find recluse in the corn and it can be murder trying to drive them out as they'll simply circle right back past drivers a few rows over and nobody knows any different. Another issue is lots of deer run right to urban areas when guns start popping. I live in Rochester, SE Minnesota, and we had snow yesterday. Today there are 11 sets of deer tracks along a BIKE path right next to our back yard.....and we can see some of the Mayo Clinic complex from our yard. Hard to get those deer back out in the country when they're safe where they are. I know of three car kills this summer on our street.

Do you think the deer population in southern Minnesota is "too high"?
If so, do you think Minnesota Game and Fish is doing their job in using hunting season structure and quotas to meet objectives?
Or are there simply not enough hunters to kill the requisite number of deer every year to meet management objectives?
Urban deer numbers are tricky to manage. There are many people that are anti hunting and damn sure don't want to see a hunter in a deer stand from their back patio.

 

[Sideshow]

Do you think the deer population in southern Minnesota is "too high"?
If so, do you think Minnesota Game and Fish is doing their job in using hunting season structure and quotas to meet objectives?
Or are there simply not enough hunters to kill the requisite number of deer every year to meet management objectives?
Urban deer numbers are tricky to manage. There are many people that are anti hunting and damn sure don't want to see a hunter in a deer stand from their back patio.

The same things happen everywhere there is pressure on deer from man or beast . Hillsdale county where ive pursued deer for 15yr is quite populated with lakefront cottages . The deer come here for safety when they must from man or beast . By day man , by nite its a new ball game from coyotes . Guys been hunting them predators for years and we cant seem to make a dent in coyote numbers . They are increaseing their numbers . Balance , especially in modern times like today , is a pipe dream . Its not gunna happen with a predator like a coyote or wolf . No way . Grandma said a stitch in time saves nine . She was right and it pertains to this as well . Would you let your kids play by a drug house ?? No , you wouldnt . Same thing . Why invite or allow this scale of trouble ??? Im sorry but all it takes is thinking and look around to whats happening where its been allowed . Its a fools erand to support any of this . I can see the forest for the trees. I dont like to be harsh AT ALL . But i also cant tolerate passive stances on this issue . There is more at stake here than is readily apparent . Those forces DEPEND on us not being able to see through what they are up to . Please , please REALIZE THIS .