CVA OPTIMA V2 PISTOL QUESTION

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

Thinking of buying a CVA Optima V2 Pistol.....

Has anyone successfully shot a .50cal. MAXI-BALL with real black-powder in one?

 

[eekjellander]

Thinking of buying a CVA Optima V2 Pistol.....

Has anyone successfully shot a .50cal. MAXI-BALL with real black-powder in one?

I sure have note says @50 yds 80 gr OE 3F weighed lubed bottom groove only bear grease/BW 3-4 inch pure lead 2 star ** and with a Lyman Plains /pure lead/ Idaho lewis NASA modified (secret) lube found here on this forum 4 star **** 2-3 inch (Both have enough recoil ) to hurt at both ends . And the winner is the same Lyman Plains (paper patched) /13.5 LB over a 1/8 inch felt wad 80grain OE 3F (says 5star*****) but no target shown ! How ever 5***** 45 Maxi /pure lead in a Black Harvester 45x50 sabot with no lube 2-4 inch @100 yds over 70 gr OE 3F all loads using CCI 209primers The same load with BH 209 is the one I"ll shoot to 200 yds better Than Black for sure

 

[MrTom]

In my first Optima pistol I tried some Maxi-Hunters, I think that's what they were called, using T7 granular and got some decent results but I wasn't fond of the recoil.

 

[deermanok]

In my own pistol, I've shot a number of different bullets, even patched round balls. I do have some TC Maxi Hunters in 275 grain that I've yet to try.

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

In my first Optima pistol I tried some Maxi-Hunters, I think that's what they were called, using T7 granular and got some decent results but I wasn't fond of the recoil.

I'm not recoil sensitive....

 

[MrTom]

I'm not recoil sensitive....

I generally run about 12-15 shots thru the gun every other week using 240 grain XTPs/sabots at the club and shoot 225 grain XPB Barnes for hunting. I can handle 12 rounds using 300 grain XTPs easily but its when the heavier than 300 grain stuff gets fed that I don't care for the recoil so much and actually the gun is much more accurate with the lighter bullets. I've shot bullets to near 400 grains but its uncomfortable then.

deermanok.....I want to remember the weight of the full bore lead bullets I shot but think they were more in the 350--375 grain category so perhaps they were not the maxi-hunters unless they made weights about that 275. I'm almost thinking now that they could have been an old Buffalo Bullet as I had a mess of those and shot them up at the range....didn't care for them in the deer woods.

 

[eekjellander]

I'm not recoil sensitive....

I"M not either (BUT)

 

[deermanok]

I generally run about 12-15 shots thru the gun every other week using 240 grain XTPs/sabots at the club and shoot 225 grain XPB Barnes for hunting. I can handle 12 rounds using 300 grain XTPs easily but its when the heavier than 300 grain stuff gets fed that I don't care for the recoil so much and actually the gun is much more accurate with the lighter bullets. I've shot bullets to near 400 grains but its uncomfortable then.

deermanok.....I want to remember the weight of the full bore lead bullets I shot but think they were more in the 350--375 grain category so perhaps they were not the maxi-hunters unless they made weights about that 275. I'm almost thinking now that they could have been an old Buffalo Bullet as I had a mess of those and shot them up at the range....didn't care for them in the deer woods.

I know that the TC Maxi hunters are 275 and 350 grain. They also have the TC Maxi Ball, but I'm not sure of the weight of those bullets.

 

[eekjellander]

One of mine says 369 grains/Ed

 

[MrTom]

I used the maxi hunters and the buffalo bullets a lot 40 years ago when I hunted side-locks and several boxes left over when I went to in-lines for hunting. When I got my first Optima pistol I shot a ton of stuff thru it to see what delivered the best results so its entirely possible that I shot both of the bullets.

 

[NIGHTWOLF1974]

IF I get one, I don't wanna shoot a sabot or use BP substitutes.

 

[deermanok]

IF I get one, I don't wanna shoot a sabot or use BP substitutes.

You'll be good with real black powder and all lead bullets.

 

[MrTom]

you're free to shoot whatever shakes your change. Go for it. Nice handguns regardless of the fuel used.

 

[eekjellander]

IF I get one, I don't wanna shoot a sabot or use BP substitutes.

Casting (LOTS) of projectiles I once said that too ,(BUT THEN) reality upon shooting showed the error of my thinking thou your experience may differ as only time will tell , for me I learned 80-90 grains of anything black hurts under 400 grains of lead ! 12-1300 FPS is all I get out of a 32 inch TC barrel with a 11.7lb rifle shootiing a 530 gr PP . Aint gonna do any more (better) with that big pocket rocket ! /Ed

 

[Matthew323]

The standard 45-70 cartridge, which is equivalent to many of the loads used by members here, both in sidelock & inline rifles, will send a 405 grain lead conical bullet out to 700 yards with enough power to still kill a deer.

It will do this in any of the modern Sharps replica rifles, with barrels ranging from 26" long to 36" long.

The modern fascination with magnum loads is not necessary to kill even the largest of American big game animals, even the bison which has a reputation for being hard to kill.

My take on BH209, which comes from reading hundreds upon hundreds of posts online, mostly here at MM, is that it is a wonderful improvement upon previous black powder substitutes.

That being said, and I am inferring from a couple of dozen posts, that the manufacturer of BH209 seems, and I will repeat that, seems to have formulated this particular black powder substitute so that it gives less than optimal performance when small powder charges are utilized.

As a result, it seems to me that this makes it less useful than both real black powder, and the other substitutes.

For instance, a shooter has a sidelock, .50 caliber rifle whose sweet spot for accuracy, as well as his normal hunting load is 90 grains of ffg black powder. He wants to develop a plinking load/target load/short range hunting load/small game load that would be approximately 50 grains of ffg black powder.

This is something that muzzleoading shooters have been doing for well over 150 years. Such a load with a patched ball would be fully capable of big game hunting at ranges out to approximately 35-40 yards. About the same distance that a hunter might load down for small game like rabbits, squirrels, turkeys, woodchucks, raccoons, etc.

If the posters here are correct, and I have no reason to doubt them, then trying the same thing in an inline rifle with BH209 as the propellant, leads to poor accuracy, and ignition problems.

Am I incorrect about this?

What's your experience in trying to use light powder charges of BH209 in an inline rifle?

With charges that would be the equivalent of 40-50 grains by volume of ffg, or fffg black powder?

With light lead conicals? With light bullets in a sabot? With a patched ball, perhaps?

 

[MrTom]

Rifles/209 powder charge size should be left out of any equation relating to a pistol. My experience with 209 powder and Optima pistol has been that optimum accuracy with several bullets/sabots [for which the gun was developed to use] has seen the best accuracy, 1" at 50 yards, somewhere between 80 and 90 grains by volume with bullets/sabots between 200 and 300 grains. A snugger bullet/sabot seems to do better than a slightly loose one. Currently I shoot either a 225 grain Barnes XPB or a 240 grain XTP with a 90 grain by volume charge. For my Optima pistols, yes a heavier charge does seem to deliver a better degree of performance and accuracy while lighter [less than 80 grains of 209 powder] will see groups open up significantly. However....this holds true with my rifles as well. I have both 50 and 45 caliber inlines that shoot charges of bh209 at 110 volume grains and 250 to 300 bullet/sabot into less than an inch at 100 yards, while 5 grains of powder either way will see group size triple at the same 100 yards.

209 powder was not developed for side locks or plunger guns or cool firing 209 muzzle loader specific primers so these facts simply may have soured some persons on the powder but I think a lot of shooters who tolerated the infamous crud ring or daily cleaning issues while hunting until they found the 209 powder would argue that the 209 powder is simply better. Every shooter has to determine whether the powder they use is the best powder but until they have actually shot the 209 powder to compare to say, true black or T7 or Pyro, they cannot make a reasonable comparison stick in any argument. For me the BH209 powder is the king for accuracy and hunting dependability. I also feel that the 209 powder helps me find and experience the best in what my guns require to perform at their fullest while T7 pellets, and granular, Pyro of several forms and true black, while all gave me reasonable accuracy in both my Optima pistols and all of my rifles, fell short of what the 209 powders delivers for me. As mentioned, I shoot T7 at the club while the BH209 goes to the deer stand and there's a reason for that.

An Opitma pistol will shoot any powder, but I say the best powder is bh209 if you are looking for the optimal performance from the guns, but obviously shoot whatever floats your boat. We all have different needs to be met but I don't "settle".

 

[ronlaughlin]

Shooting has revealed that accuracy is more a function of bullet speed than powder type; at least around here.

For each gun, when the "magic" bullet speed is made, tight grouping happens; no matter what the powder is.

 

[ronlaughlin]

What's your experience in trying to use light powder charges of BH209 in an inline rifle?

Here is about 60 reduced loads using Blackhorn powder. They all ignited instantaneously, and hit where aimed.

Using Blackhorn powder to make reduced loads seems to work good.

 

[Matthew323]

Here is about 60 reduced loads using Blackhorn powder. They all ignited instantaneously, and hit where aimed.

Using Blackhorn powder to make reduced loads seems to work good.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Ron!!!!

For the past couple of years all I am seeing published online as "normal everyday loads" for BH 209, are what any patched ball shooter would consider a stout load.

As I mentioned in my opening statement on this thread, I kept getting inferences from multiple posters that they had tried reduced loads with BH209, without success.

This truly puzzled me. I could not for the life of me figure out whether the BH209 propellant was formulated so that reduced loads were problematic, which seemed unlikely on the face of things. But, stranger things have been known to be true.

Or, and this seemed like a far more possible explanation, that magnum loads had been pushed onto the American muzzleloading hunter since the first inline rifles had been introduced to the market. Magnum loads have been, and still are to this day, what the average American muzzleloading hunter thinks are necessary, and required in order for both his rifle to work properly, and to kill big game cleanly.

If a inline hunter/shooter is going to use a center-fire rifle as the benchmark for which to judge his inline rifle, then center-fire type velocities are what he is going to try and obtain. And, in order to try and obtain those center-fire type velocities, big powder charges are going to be required. Lesser powder charges, that might be quite acceptable shooting a patched ball are just not going make a lot of sense.

This is the third time that I have asked this question, and you are the first person to accurately respond with data that would either prove, or disprove, my assertions.

Thanks again,
Bruce

 

[eekjellander]

Here is about 60 reduced loads using Blackhorn powder. They all ignited instantaneously, and hit where aimed.

Using Blackhorn powder to make reduced loads seems to work good.

Awesome work and impressive to boot/Ed