Sabot issue?

[Philgumbo]

It’s from being shot from A short barreled pistol..shoot it in low light and you will see exactly what I mean..the powder is still trying to burn as it exits the bore…another reason why it’s borderline useless to use much more than 70 grains in a pistol length barrel.

And btw bh209 is a bit of a slouch when used in pistols since it’s a progressive burning powder. When I switched to 777 3f I gained quite a bit of velocity in the short barreled pistols I have

T7 is great stuff, and I honestly don't understand the craze about going to smokeless powder. Muzzle loading firearms are designed to use black powder, or substitutes, not smokeless powder!

 

[rangerod]

^^^^^^^^^^
I would try this. In a rifle, I always had better accuracy with 45 cal bullets than 44 cal bullets. Back before I started with a rifle, I had a CVA Optima V1 pistol. I brought it from a pawn shop. I let a buddy of mine have it to hunt with. He had shoulder surgery and was unable to hunt with a rifle. From what I can remember he used the smooth black MMP sabots and 45 cal bullets. It must have been accurate because I never got the pistol back....lol....

Yep. This.

 

[MrTom]

T7 is great stuff, and I honestly don't understand the craze about going to smokeless powder. Muzzle loading firearms are designed to use black powder, or substitutes, not smokeless powder!

Seems to me that smokeless is at the top of the list as a substitute. BH209 is right underneath that. Then T7. Then the blacks. Then Pyrodex. They all load from the front.... meaning a muzzleloader.

Don't like shooting the best, at the top, shoot something lesser. No problem.

 

[Steelheader323]

Seems to me that smokeless is at the top of the list as a substitute. BH209 is right underneath that. Then T7. Then the blacks. Then Pyrodex. They all load from the front.... meaning a muzzleloader.

Don't like shooting the best, at the top, shoot something lesser. No problem.

Agreed…I have rifles that shoot real black…some use triple 7, some use bh209..and even a smokeless setup..they all have there place

 

[ElDiablo]

T7 is great stuff, and I honestly don't understand the craze about going to smokeless powder. Muzzle loading firearms are designed to use black powder, or substitutes, not smokeless powder!

I think a guy could say “ Muzzleloading firearms were designed to shoot black powder. I don’t understand the craze about going to bp subs.”

 

[MrTom]

I think a guy could say “ SOME Muzzleloading firearms were designed to shoot black powder. I don’t understand the craze about going to bp subs.”

There. I fixed it for you. No thanks necessary.

 

[LBAhunter]

T7 is great stuff, and I honestly don't understand the craze about going to smokeless powder. Muzzle loading firearms are designed to use black powder, or substitutes, not smokeless powder!

True, most muzzleloaders are. My conversion isn't. It's designed for smokeless. If you think T7 is great, research smokeless and see what you can do with it in the right gun. I thought BH209 was great but I can run smokeless loads in my Scout conversion that beats it with less powder, recoil, clean-up, and cheaper. There's so much more versatility to smokeless.

 

[10acres]

Short range session #2 with the Optima pistol and I need more practice with it. The sabots all looked similar to the one in post #1, but no hang fires or misfires this time. I was using a stout load of 65g weighed of 2F 777 with the same 240g XTP and a HGCR sabot. Gonna drop down to 60g for the next trip and swab between shots.

 

[10acres]

If you’re on the fence about buying one of these, just do it. They are a blast to shoot.

 

[bronko220002]

IMO the sabot looks good. However you're wasting a lot of powder using that much bh209. I'd drop down to 70 gr V or try some T7 which you're goung to do.(didn't read all the posts)

 

[bronko220002]

T7 is great stuff, and I honestly don't understand the craze about going to smokeless powder. Muzzle loading firearms are designed to use black powder, or substitutes, not smokeless powder!

That is why most smokeless muzzleloaders are converted CF rifles like those chambered in .45-70 or are rebarreled with a barrel capable of handling the pressure.
I was on the fence about going smokeless but pulled the trigger earlier this year. Just another toy to play with.

 

[MrTom]

However you're wasting a lot of powder using that much bh209.

I run 63 weighed grains of BH [equivilent to 90 grains by volume] with a 225 grain Barnes or a 240 grain XTP and never, ever see so much as a speck of powder on fresh snow. I've shot from 56 weighed grains to 77 weighed grains with bullets between 250 grains and 200 grains and all of my best accuracy has come in the 63 to 70 grain by weight range. Over 70 by weight and things begin to open up. At 60 by weight or less, things open up. I don't need the extra recoil from a 70 grain load and 63 is pretty manageable off a bench, definitely in the woods. If anyone is finding unburned powder with these pistols they need to use a tighter sabot, especially with bh since it likes to be firmly and tightly packed. If a sabot that loads fairly easy is coming off the load, unburned powder may be noticed. I load my pistol with some pretty firm pressure to run the bullet down. I see zero unburned powder when using either BH or T7 fffg.

No powder is ever wasted if it is delivering the accuracy which you demand.

 

[bronko220002]

Tom have you ever run your load and a lighter load through a chronograph? I with you that accuracy is top priority but although not in your case, a lighter load may produce similar velocity in the short barreled pistol. Just wondering.

 

[MrTom]

Been there and done that. The groups open up radically as the charge [velocity] goes down. That 63 weighed grains gives me five shots touching at both 25 and 50 yards and only slightly larger at around 68-69 yards. The only time I saw any signs of unburned powder from that p[istol was when I was using green crush ribs because they loaded easy. BH likes a very solid, firm or hard pack and just going to a plain green sabot that created more loading resistance was all it took to see the powder flakes go away. T7 fffg like a real firm tamp too and I see zip for any unburned on snow when I shoot it.

I think half of the problems people harp about with BH209 powder is that they are not getting enough tamping pressure on the powder because they're happy loading sabots that don't offer enough resistance and the bullet/sabot simply recoil off the powder charge when the rod is pulled. Every one of my in-lines uses a sabot/bullet combo that don't load all the easy and they always go bang when I need them too and they do it cleanly... no unburned powder.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

T7 is great stuff, and I honestly don't understand the craze about going to smokeless powder. Muzzle loading firearms are designed to use black powder, or substitutes, not smokeless powder!

That ship sailed over 20 years ago when Savage Arms designed their Model 10ML muzzleloader, which was designed to use smokeless powder. Why? Some of us do not like rust. Corrosive propellants are one of the best things in history for the sales of muzzleloaders. If you were selling muzzleloaders, you would absolutely love corrosive propellants. When a customer brings a muzzleloader into my shop and tells me his son forgot to clean it at the end of the previous season, we all know what the barrel is going to look like.

The Safety Data Sheet in the link below reveals BH209 is 83% Nitrocellulose. So once again, that ship has already sailed. However, BH209 does contain some corrosive oxidizers, like Guanidine Nitrate, which can rust your barrel.

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2022-blackhorn-209-sds.pdf
Why are some of us crazy about smokeless muzzleloaders? Shooting a 300-grain bullet at Mach 3 out of a muzzleloader is like Chuck Yeager flying faster than the speed of sound. Some people like pushing the limits of the Laws of Physics.



.

 

[bronko220002]

Tom I understand what you're saying but I'm asking if you ever ran your load and a lesser load thru a chronograph to see what the speed difference is? Even though you get less accuracy from a lighter load maybe someone else won't. I no longer have a muzzleloader pistol to test .

 

[rangerod]

T7 is great stuff, and I honestly don't understand the craze about going to smokeless powder. Muzzle loading firearms are designed to use black powder, or substitutes, not smokeless powder!

They all have their plus and minuses. T7 is corrosive, although not quite as much as real black. It also has the crud ring issue. On the plus side it cleans up easily.Black Horn is so expensive you have to practically take out a loan to buy it but no crud ring or swabbing. If you wanna shoot smokeless you'll have to put some serious $ on the table for the right gun. I guess it's a question as to what mouse trap you think is best for you.

 

[MrTom]

I don't own my own chrono so when I get a chance to have someone at the club take time to run some velocity readings I will, but no I haven't messed with what the velocity is at those reduced charges because my accuracy lies where I shoot the gun currently. Honestly, I could give a rip what the reduced charges yield for velocity because given the best accuracy and terminal performance on deer at the current load level, I am not going backwards with a reduced load that yields less accuracy or group size within the parameters that I hunt in.... to me that's just tossing away powder and bullets. If I was a serious long range shooter, maybe I'd ante up for the electronics and think differently. Right now, with that pistol using the current load in the field that I use, its a deer killing machine and I'd lay it up against any rifle within the distances I shoot my deer at. I don't need to know whether or not I can outrun it.

As mentioned before, I collect all of my spent sabots and primers, the primers in an empty primer tray that is numbered by row so I can go right back to which shot an issue might have started. It makes no difference which gun out of all of my inlines a sabot comes from, none looked like the original poster's or subsequent pictures and that tells me all is fine with my gun's loads.

 

[Philgumbo]

They all have their plus and minuses. T7 is corrosive, although not quite as much as real black. It also has the crud ring issue. On the plus side it cleans up easily.Black Horn is so expensive you have to practically take out a loan to buy it but no crud ring or swabbing. If you wanna shoot smokeless you'll have to put some serious $ on the table for the right gun. I guess it's a question as to what mouse trap you think is best for you.

T7 does clean up easy...and it's punchy. I've had no issues with it.

 

[Philgumbo]

There. I fixed it for you. No thanks necessary.

To each his own, but I'll stick with T7. It has never failed me, and cleans up easily.