For those that shoot conicals made of pure lead........

[drpatton]

I use Pyrodex P. Back when I tested T7 I didn't have good luck with it. Looking back I'm pretty sure I know the problem. The paper patched Lee 500S&W bullet doesn't like to be pushed much past 1350 fps. That speed is 80 gr of pyrodex P. I'm sure I was faster with the T7.
I do what I call torture tests. Where I shoot and not clean until I can no longer predict where the bullet will hit. That gives me a baseline of what to expect. With pyrodex P I can shoot at least to 10 shots. With T7 I never felt like the load was consistent enough to even start the test. But there again I did not know the speed of the load I was using

I also cannot get T7 to shoot; However, I believe the problem is mine and not T7. I found Triple 7 burns a lot hotter than Pyrodex or BP. It burned up well lubed .020 heavy patches on RBs. That's when I decided to start using a felt wad over the powder. Now, I need to find a lube which can handle the difference in heat. Once I find the lube, I will need to work up a load. I will start by a 30% reduction in volume equivalence and then measure its weight.

I am going to experiment with T7 until I get it right. The reason is, I believe anything which will improve the efficiency of the powder and give more energy by volume, is well worth the effort. BP and Pyrodex are very inefficient in converting mass to energy and leave behind 50% to 60% of their mass in waste fouling. My understanding is T7 is 90% efficient, leaves little fouling and the energy released is much greater then BP or Pyrodex.

The only information Hodgdon has given me, is the shelf life of T7 when kept in a cool dry area, is endless. According to Hodgdon, T7 doesn't break down or deteriorate on the shelf, when kept dry. I was told T7 is extremely hygroscopic and must be stored correctly.

Idohoron, if you have any ideas which may help find a solution to the problem, I would appreciate it. Thanks

 

[idahoron]

I also cannot get T7 to shoot; However, I believe the problem is mine and not T7. I found Triple 7 burns a lot hotter than Pyrodex or BP. It burned up well lubed .020 heavy patches on RBs. That's when I decided to start using a felt wad over the powder. Now, I need to find a lube which can handle the difference in heat. Once I find the lube, I will need to work up a load. I will start by a 30% reduction in volume equivalence and then measure its weight.

I am going to experiment with T7 until I get it right. The reason is, I believe anything which will improve the efficiency of the powder and give more energy by volume, is well worth the effort. BP and Pyrodex are very inefficient in converting mass to energy and leave behind 50% to 60% of their mass in waste fouling. My understanding is T7 is 90% efficient, leaves little fouling and the energy released is much greater then BP or Pyrodex.

The only information Hodgdon has given me, is the shelf life of T7 when kept in a cool dry area, is endless. According to Hodgdon, T7 doesn't break down or deteriorate on the shelf, when kept dry. I was told T7 is extremely hygroscopic and must be stored correctly.

Idohoron, if you have any ideas which may help find a solution to the problem, I would appreciate it. Thanks

A couple years ago I sold some bullets to a man here in Idaho to test. He is using T7 fffg. I think his gun is a cva not sure. The group is with 57 grains of T7 fffg. I told him my thinking using my bullets. I told him to stay between 1310 and 1350 fps.
I'm not sure about his over powder wad and grease on them. The bullet picture was a Lee 500S&W bullet taken out of a bull elk shot at 115 yards. Crushed the shoulder and was found under the skin on the off side.
His testing really proved that T7 will work with paper patched bullets.

 

[ETipp]

A couple years ago I sold some bullets to a man here in Idaho to test. He is using T7 fffg. I think his gun is a cva not sure. The group is with 57 grains of T7 fffg. I told him my thinking using my bullets. I told him to stay between 1310 and 1350 fps.
I'm not sure about his over powder wad and grease on them. The bullet picture was a Lee 500S&W bullet taken out of a bull elk shot at 115 yards. Crushed the shoulder and was found under the skin on the off side.
His testing really proved that T7 will work with paper patched bullets.

Darn awesome performance all the way around.

Last week I watched a video of a fella that does a lot of ML and ML bullet testing. He had a several bullets which one being a 500 grain bullet with a white paper patch around it. He shot it into water jugs that were lined up. It took out more water jugs than any other round that I saw him shoot in a couple different videos. The recovered bullet had expanded nicely.

If I were living back out west again that would most likely be my elk bullet. Not sure on the powder. So far I have no complaints with 777. I am, however, a big fan of black powder.

 

[idahoron]

Take a look at this test that was done. In this test my bullets win the test.

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/361092-science-project-report-long.html

 

[ETipp]

Take a look at this test that was done. In this test my bullets win the test.

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/361092-science-project-report-long.html

Quite the test. Lots of good information there to be had.

Thanks for posting that.

 

[drpatton]

Quite the test. Lots of good information there to be had.

Thanks for posting that.

I see the meplat of that bullet. It's huge. Almost like shooting a cylinder. WOW.

 

[idahoron]

I see the meplat of that bullet. It's huge. Almost like shooting a cylinder. WOW.

That bullet puts the law down on game.

 

[drpatton]

I also cannot get T7 to shoot; However, I believe the problem is mine and not T7. I found Triple 7 burns a lot hotter than Pyrodex or BP. It burned up well lubed .020 heavy patches on RBs. That's when I decided to start using a felt wad over the powder. Now, I need to find a lube which can handle the difference in heat. Once I find the lube, I will need to work up a load. I will start by a 30% reduction in volume equivalence and then measure its weight.

I am going to experiment with T7 until I get it right. The reason is, I believe anything which will improve the efficiency of the powder and give more energy by volume, is well worth the effort. BP and Pyrodex are very inefficient in converting mass to energy and leave behind 50% to 60% of their mass in waste fouling. My understanding is T7 is 90% efficient, leaves little fouling and the energy released is much greater then BP or Pyrodex.

The only information Hodgdon has given me, is the shelf life of T7 when kept in a cool dry area, is endless. According to Hodgdon, T7 doesn't break down or deteriorate on the shelf, when kept dry. I was told T7 is extremely hygroscopic and must be stored correctly.

Idohoron, if you have any ideas which may help find a solution to the problem, I would appreciate it. Thanks

If you don't mind, I'm going in a different direction for a moment. I was given a Traditions "PA Pellet Ultralight." It's a .50 flintlock with shallow 1:28 rifling. It was designed for sabots or belted bullets, neither of which I shoot. I believe the rifling is about .003" to .004".
My question is, will paper patched bullets shoot well in shallow groves? Or more to the point, shallow grooves with quick rifling. I want to try the BACO .492" Diameter 650 Grain Swaged Paper Patch Pure Lead bullet. (quoted from BACOs web site).
I believe you size them to .492. I don't size them, so mine should be closer to .498".

 

[idahoron]

If you don't mind, I'm going in a different direction for a moment. I was given a Traditions "PA Pellet Ultralight." It's a .50 flintlock with shallow 1:28 rifling. It was designed for sabots or belted bullets, neither of which I shoot. I believe the rifling is about .003" to .004".
My question is, will paper patched bullets shoot well in shallow groves? Or more to the point, shallow grooves with quick rifling. I want to try the BACO .492" Diameter 650 Grain Swaged Paper Patch Pure Lead bullet. (quoted from BACOs web site).
I believe you size them to .492. I don't size them, so mine should be closer to .498".

The green mountain rifling is a pretty shallow rifling. There is no reason that they would not do well. I believe that paper patching was intended for shallow grooves.
I tried some of the BACO paper patched bullets. I didn't have good luck with them. Back when that happened Lewis and I discussed it quite a bit. I believe that the Green Mountain barrels like a harder bullet compared to the blued barrels.
On my 50's the bullet falls out at .501 I wrap them and size them to .501
The bullet it's self is taken to .496 under the paper.
Another thing I have found with my guns. The bullets I'm using shoot better after sizing with paper on.

 

[deermanok]

If you don't mind, I'm going in a different direction for a moment. I was given a Traditions "PA Pellet Ultralight." It's a .50 flintlock with shallow 1:28 rifling. It was designed for sabots or belted bullets, neither of which I shoot. I believe the rifling is about .003" to .004".
My question is, will paper patched bullets shoot well in shallow groves? Or more to the point, shallow grooves with quick rifling. I want to try the BACO .492" Diameter 650 Grain Swaged Paper Patch Pure Lead bullet. (quoted from BACOs web site).
I believe you size them to .492. I don't size them, so mine should be closer to .498".

That's a heavy chunk of lead to shoot out that gun, imo.
I'm assuming its got a synthetic stock?
It will be punishing on both ends. Good luck with that.

 

[drpatton]

That's a heavy chunk of lead to shoot out that gun, imo.
I'm assuming its got a synthetic stock?
It will be punishing on both ends. Good luck with that.

I'm using such a large chunck of lead to give the rifling enough surface area to hold the twist in shallow grooves.
Shallow grooves need surface area to grab on to. That's why when the sectional density is low for a given twist, the grooves must be deeper to grab and hold the bullet. Case in point is, the original Hawken rifles used a 1:48 twist for patched round balls. That's too quick for the bearing surface area with decent velocity, so the rifles were given a groove depth of .012. That is more than enough to grab a patched ball when there is more than enough force behind the ball to strip the rifling with a groove depth of .005 to .007.

There is another way to keep the bullet in the rifling. Using harder lead, which will not strip or trip through shallower rifling. I'm sure you already know ,that's one of the reasons modern bullets use copper jackets. Copper is harder than lead and will hold a bullet with greater velocity in shallower rifling.

 

[drpatton]

The green mountain rifling is a pretty shallow rifling. There is no reason that they would not do well. I believe that paper patching was intended for shallow grooves.
I tried some of the BACO paper patched bullets. I didn't have good luck with them. Back when that happened Lewis and I discussed it quite a bit. I believe that the Green Mountain barrels like a harder bullet compared to the blued barrels.
On my 50's the bullet falls out at .501 I wrap them and size them to .501
The bullet it's self is taken to .496 under the paper.
Another thing I have found with my guns. The bullets I'm using shoot better after sizing with paper on.

If you don't mind my asking, whose bullets do you use? Besides your own molded bullets.

 

[idahoron]

That's a heavy chunk of lead to shoot out that gun, imo.
I'm assuming its got a synthetic stock?
It will be punishing on both ends. Good luck with that.

I'm wondering how much

If you don't mind my asking, whose bullets do you use? Besides your own molded bullets.

I have tried no excuse bullets, white muzzleloading, BACO, TC maxi hunters, TC Maxi ball. I have taken several deer with Hornady 410 gr great plains bullets in 50 cal.
I no longer use any bullets that I don't make.

 

[drpatton]

I'm wondering how much

I have tried no excuse bullets, white muzzleloading, BACO, TC maxi hunters, TC Maxi ball. I have taken several deer with Hornady 410 gr great plains bullets in 50 cal.
I no longer use any bullets that I don't make.

I used to make my own Minie balls when I shot competition with my .58 Mississippi Rifle. I found I had a lot issues making them, so I stopped. I found it's cheaper for me to purchase a well made projectile than for me to spend the time making a few. This is also the reason I do not own a Whitworth Rifle. I would have to cast my own hexagonal bullets to shoot in it, but I love the rifle and the hex concept.

I use the No Excuse lubed bullets , BACO for paper patch and Hornady for the rest. I also have CVA Deerslayer in .54. I used to shoot T/C bullets, but they became too expensive to buy and were not any better than their competition.

I no longer hunt, so finding a projectile to take down an animal, isn't an issue for me. I plink and when I can, I shoot for accuracy. That's why I use T7. Swiss and Pyrodex became too hard to find in a cost affordable manner. T7 cost about the same or less without the shipping charges, and it is everywhere here where I live.

 

[snapbang]

Tomorrow I get out my Knight Bighorn and some 420 no excuses in .50 caliber. Ill start with 80 grains of holy Swiss and an over powder wad. How am I doing???????

 

[Harleysboss]

Standing right in the middle of the Ball Park I would say.

 

[snapbang]

 

[451whitworth]

This is also the reason I do not own a Whitworth Rifle. I would have to cast my own hexagonal bullets to shoot in it, but I love the rifle and the hex concept.

You don't have to cast a hexagonal bullet for a Whitworth. Cylindrical bullets work great.

 

[drpatton]

You don't have to cast a hexagonal bullet for a Whitworth. Cylindrical bullets work great.

I have read cylindrical bullets work and I know the Southern snipers used round them. I also read a cylindrical bullet passed through a piece of Whitworth barrel will size and shape them. But that brings up another problem, where does one get a piece of Whitworth barrel?
It's for this reason, I would rather paper patch a hex bullet, and I understand the paper patched are more accurate.

What do you use? A .451 grease groove? How accurate is it? It's the accuracy I'm after.

 

[Bad Karma]

I have read cylindrical bullets work and I know the Southern snipers used round them. I also read a cylindrical bullet passed through a piece of Whitworth barrel will size and shape them. But that brings up another problem, where does one get a piece of Whitworth barrel?
It's for this reason, I would rather paper patch a hex bullet, and I understand the paper patched are more accurate.

What do you use? A .451 grease groove? How accurate is it? It's the accuracy I'm after.

You size your grease groove bullet to a slip fit in your rifle and any of the 4-525 grain .451” bullets will work. Seat a .030 x .465” card wad on the charge. The kick from a 90 grain charge will turn the gg bullet into an exact replica of the hexagonal bore in your rifle. It will be as accurate as anything cast from the whitworth mold.