Buck Conner1
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2015
- Messages
- 4,592
- Reaction score
- 558
Yes the GRRW.CA smiths will work with you with any concerns, bottom line your the customer and above all they want you to be happy with your build.Bear Claw said:
We have an old friend that hangs out with the smiths (he's older than us) and will drive you freekin' nuts when you talk about the Kit Carson Hawken. He has schematics of the original rifle CORRECTION - NEVER AT GRRW. He was a student of Greg Roberts (office manager of GGRW), they held classes for those interested in building Hawken rifles.
Herb Troester is on several blogs talking about what to do to make a TOTW Carson kit correct. He is a student of this rifle and has learned his lessons well. Read this letter he sent me about this gun.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
To: Buck Conner [email protected]
From: herbt [email protected]</font>[/size][/i]</a>
Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2016 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: GRRW.CA 02.27.2016 Update on the firearm project.
I am impressed with your web site and how fast you did all this. I saw your Leman at Carl Walker's last Wednesday.
I do have some comments about your thoughts on Kit Carson rifle parts. You show Track of the Wolf's parts set and blueprint. This drawing is a fantasy rifle bearing no relation to the actual Kit Carson rifle, if that is important to anyone.
1). wrong entry pipe - the correct entry pipe is BP-Hawk-TE-7-I.
2). wrong buttplate - correct butt plate is the Jim Bridger, and it has a 13 1/4" LOP and not 14 5/8".
3). The Bridger rifle and the Carson are basically twins, except the Carson barrel is about two inches shorter and tapered, the length being 31 1/8" ahead of the snail. I base my knowledge on the drawing of the Bridger that Greg Roberts made of it when they had it at GRRW in 1975, and 23 B&W photos he took, which Carl Walker has. Also color photos that Dave Boender took. And my actual measurements made of the Bridger in the museum at Helena. The length of the Carson barrel comes from the americanlongrifles web site, where someone else actually measured it, Don Stith. None of the measurements of TOTW's Carson rifle are correct, except for the lock and trigger guard.
4). I took Jim Gordon's book with its color photos of the Carson rifle and had a photo shop here enlarge it to life size, based on the 31 1/8" barrel. Thus I am able to lay the parts on the photo and see if they match, or how they differ. I have not asked Jim Gordon's permission to do this, so don't put these photos on your web site. I plan to write him and ask if he could make life size photos of some of the best known Hawkens, from which actual measurements can be made and correct parts chosen or modified to be correct.
Do not put these photos on the GRRW.CA web site
Thus I can tell you the correct lock for both is the Davis Jim Bridger lock.
The trigger guard is Track's TG-Hawk-L-B-I or Muzzleloader Builders Supply 14820, which does not have the stud threaded.
Ron Long trigger TR-PA-20, and not L&R 1300.
Butt Plate is Jim Bridger BP-Hawk-JB-I, but modified. This is done by filing the sides and bottom of the return back to the edge of the flat, with a square corner at the return. Also, take the taper out of the bottom of the return.
Correct entry pipe for both is RP-Hawk-TE-7-I. Rod pipes are 1/2" inside diameter on the Bridger.
My Bridger copy is based on the GRRW shop info for the Carson rifle. The GRRW 1 1/8" straight barrel I have I got used from Neill Fields, (someone started to build with it and quit) and it was cut to 31" ahead of the snail, so I had to change my forend for this 2" shorter barrel. That just happens to almost exactly match the Carson rifle.
MBS has a 1 1/8" cast nose cap, perfect for the 1 1/8" Bridger, Track does not. But the taper at the cap makes the barrel of the Carson about 1 1/16" there, so the cap has to be squeezed or welded a little smaller to fit. Or buy MBS 1" cast and file it open, which is what I do.
I have about 50 measurements of each rifle, copied from Greg Roberts' drawings or the actual Bridger rifle, and from the full scale photo of the Carson. I can share these with your builders if they want them.
I am not looking to build, but am working on two Carson rifles right now. Had Carl Walker saw out the stock and route the barrel channel and drill the ram rod hole for them. (Doc White has his copy of the Bridger stock, copied from the original and cut to within 1/16" inch accuracy.)
I will send you photos of the full size enlargement of the Carson rifle with details, and my Jim Bridger copy for comparison.
Herb
"Full size photo of Carson rifle and my Jim Bridger copy."
"Carson rifle and my Bridger copy"
"Carson rifle and my Bridger"
"Don't think this went through before. Carson and my Bridger."
----------------------------------------------------------------
Pete this is probably more information than you wanted, this shows the research these old gunsmith's have put into their firearms they are building. Buck
