Has anyone ever had a R.E.A.L bullet move off the charge?

[ETipp]

Looking for some information on this. Particularly the .50 caliber Hornady Great Plains Bullet, which I'm assuming its a R.E.A.L. bullet. I like what I have read on that bullet, as wells as some videos of them. But if this is a R.E.A.L bullet, and if there is anyone that's actually had one move off of the charge, I'm not so sure I want to hunt with it. I hunt some pretty steep and rough terrain, as well as from a tree stand at times. Trying to keep the muzzle upward is not going to happen all the time.

 

[451whitworth]

My friends used to shoot .50 cal Hornady Great Plains bullets back in the '90's up until around 2007. They have never had one move off the powder and they exclusively use their ML'ers on deer drives. So all day the rifles were being bumped and banged around pushing through brush, in and out of boats, trucks, gun cases, etc. The front oversized band of the Hornady GP bullet has about 3x the bearing surface of a T/C Maxi Ball and 2x the diameter (.510" vs .505"). T/C Maxi Ball's with their small front bands are notorious for moving under rough handling.

 

[ETipp]

My friends used to shoot .50 cal Hornady Great Plains bullets back in the '90's up until around 2007. They have never had one move off the powder and they exclusively use their ML'ers on deer drives. So all day the rifles were being bumped and banged around pushing through brush, in and out of boats, trucks, gun cases, etc. The front oversized band of the Hornady GP bullet has about 3x the bearing surface of a T/C Maxi Ball and 2x the diameter (.510" vs .505"). T/C Maxi Ball's with their small front bands are notorious for moving under rough handling.

Thank you for the report. One thing I don't need nor want is a bullet that moves off the charge.

The only conical bullets I have ever hunted with has been Maxi Balls. I make my own that are hard cast and they fit pretty darn tight all the way down the barrel. I had tested some factory Maxi Balls straight out of the box and they loaded and went down the barrel easier. To my knowledge I have never had one of my hand cast Maxis move off the charge, and I've hunted some steep and rough terrain, especially out west. Perhaps the stock Maxis being made of softer lead made the difference. Or, perhaps my mold is a bit on the large size.

With that said, I am interested in trying the HGP bullet due to their expansion qualities. Never had the first issue with my hard cast Maxis but I have a new happy hunting grounds that is mostly very thick, like no mans land thick with briars. Just kicking around the idea of a bullet that expands more for possible more blood on the ground.

 

[deermanok]

I've hunted a lot with the Maxi Hunters, 275 grain.
My habit is once I'm setup in my spot, I would push the ramrod down the barrel to check.
Over the years, I do recall on some occasions that the bullet did feel as though it drifted off the powder charge.

 

[Renegadehunter]

I've always assumed that the Hornady GPB was made by Hornady themselves, but it's possible they contract it to REAL?

I've used a fair amount of them in my .54 Renegade, back when they made them in .54 (I still have 4 or 5 containers of them rat-holed for myself), and have definitely found a few that had moved off the powder charge. It can happen for sure. The lead is pretty soft. They will start fairly hard, but as you push them down the bore they move easier and easier as they engrave. In my TC they were moving pretty easily by the time I seated them.

The times I caught them off the powder was always after being carried on an atv though. I carried the rifle on the front rack of the atv, in those "U" type rifle carrier mounts you can clamp to the rack tubing. I got into the habit of checking them before every hunt, I never found one not seated after I carried the rifle while actually hunting.
So, I would get to where I wanted to hunt with the atv, check that the bullet was seated, and then start hunting. When I returned to the atv I would check it again just to see if it had moved, it was always still seated after hunting when I carried the rifle myself.
That was not always the case when I checked them after an atv ride to the next spot I wanted to hunt.

They were very accurate in my shallow groove 1:48 TC. They expand really well and wallop a deer with authority. I just dealt with checking them often, they shot so well I really wanted to use them.

 

[ETipp]

I've always assumed that the Hornady GPB was made by Hornady themselves, but it's possible they contract it to REAL?

I've used a fair amount of them in my .54 Renegade, back when they made them in .54 (I still have 4 or 5 containers of them rat-holed for myself), and have definitely found a few that had moved off the powder charge. It can happen for sure. The lead is pretty soft. They will start fairly hard, but as you push them down the bore they move easier and easier as they engrave. In my TC they were moving pretty easily by the time I seated them.

The times I caught them off the powder was always after being carried on an atv though. I carried the rifle on the front rack of the atv, in those "U" type rifle carrier mounts you can clamp to the rack tubing. I got into the habit of checking them before every hunt, I never found one not seated after I carried the rifle while actually hunting.
So, I would get to where I wanted to hunt with the atv, check that the bullet was seated, and then start hunting. When I returned to the atv I would check it again just to see if it had moved, it was always still seated after hunting when I carried the rifle myself.
That was not always the case when I checked them after an atv ride to the next spot I wanted to hunt.

They were very accurate in my shallow groove 1:48 TC. They expand really well and wallop a deer with authority. I just dealt with checking them often, they shot so well I really wanted to use them.

Okay, so it looks like checking them prior to the hunt is a good habit to get into. I also ride an ATV at my happy hunting grounds. So if I decide to try HGP bullet I will pay attention to that one as well.

 

[WP79Vet]

Last week I spent 2 days carrying a TC Renegade loaded with a Hornady GP up and down steep mountains here in Montana. As Renegadehunter noticed, the HGPs start a little hard, but are moving very easily by the time they get halfway down the barrel, so I was concerned about having them move off the charge, and checked several times. No problems noted, but I would always check if the rifle got jarred in a fall, inadvertantly whacked a tree, went through a bumpy ride on an ATV or even in a pickup on a dirt road, etc.

 

[ETipp]

Last week I spent 2 days carrying a TC Renegade loaded with a Hornady GP up and down steep mountains here in Montana. As Renegadehunter noticed, the HGPs start a little hard, but are moving very easily by the time they get halfway down the barrel, so I was concerned about having them move off the charge, and checked several times. No problems noted, but I would always check if the rifle got jarred in a fall, inadvertantly whacked a tree, went through a bumpy ride on an ATV or even in a pickup on a dirt road, etc.

That makes perfect sense. I'm from Montana so I know how rugged the terrain can be, depending on location. At my new happy hunting grounds it is steeper than a mules face and I do hit the ground a few times now and then, and sometimes manage to slide a ways. From the replies I have gotten on this (which I am grateful for) it appears that as long as one checks the seating after a ride or fall, the HGP bullet should be okay.

 

[idahoron]

I hunted with HGP bullets for many years and took a lot of game.
The ones i.used were 410 flat point.
They do indeed start tougher but loosen up on the way down.
I carried my rifle in desert canyons and mountains. I used a sling muzzle up.
I carried it on my ATV all the time with HGP bullets. I.never had a bullet move but I routinely checked it.
Honestly the 410 gr flat point was super soft. In the picture that bullet failed to penetrate through the chest cavity.
The 385 is not going to be a bullet that I would recommend.

Also, the HGP bullet is not in any way shape or form the same as a REAL bullet.

 

[ETipp]

What is the difference between the HGP bullet and a R.E.A.L. bullet if the characteristics are the same?

 

[WP79Vet]

Hmmm.... seems to me that there's a little confusion going on? REAL is an acronym that stands for Rifling Engraved At Loading, and the Lee company has named a specific bullet design for which they make a mold the R.E.A.L. bullet: If you treat REAL as an acronym, then every full-bore conical with a diameter that's slightly greater than the bore diameter (defined by usual muzzleloader standards as the distance from land to land) is a REAL bullet: The rifling will engrave grooves on the bullet as the bullet is loaded. The HGP is one such bullet - as most full-bore conicals seem to be. However, in most of the reading I've done on this site and elsewhere, when writers refer to a REAL bullet, they are referring to the specific Lee design - which is quite different than the HGP design, as Idahoron points out.

 

[WP79Vet]

I hunted with HGP bullets for many years and took a lot of game.
The ones i.used were 410 flat point.
They do indeed start tougher but loosen up on the way down.
I carried my rifle in desert canyons and mountains. I used a sling muzzle up.
I carried it on my ATV all the time with HGP bullets. I.never had a bullet move but I routinely checked it.
Honestly the 410 gr flat point was super soft. In the picture that bullet failed to penetrate through the chest cavity.
The 385 is not going to be a bullet that I would recommend.

Also, the HGP bullet is not in any way shape or form the same as a REAL bullet.

Is your problem with the HGP 385 grain bullets that they are too soft to penetrate well? What full-bore 50 caliber conical do you recommend for hunting elk? The commercially available choices seem to be pretty limited.

I'm looking for a conical which will shoot well out of my 1-48 twist Renegade with heavy hunting charges, will load easily, and will give adequate penetration to kill elk reliably, even if bullet placement is less than perfect. My initial thinking is that the 1-48 twist probably isn't fast enough to stabilize bullets that are much heavier than 400 grains, and for trajectory reasons, I would prefer a somewhat lighter and thus faster bullet anyway. If necessary, I'll get into casting my own, but I'd prefer to find a reasonable commercial bullet and just size it to fit my rifle, if necessary to get an easily loaded bullet. Hence my interest in the HGP 385 grain bullet.

 

[Greg_E]

The Lee REAL are also supposed to be able to work well in slower twist barrels like 1:60, I have not tested this yet. I do have a 200 grain REAL to try in my old CVA with a 1:60 twist once I get that back together and make sure time hasn't wrecked it.

 

[ETipp]

Hmmm.... seems to me that there's a little confusion going on? REAL is an acronym that stands for Rifling Engraved At Loading, and the Lee company has named a specific bullet design for which they make a mold the R.E.A.L. bullet: If you treat REAL as an acronym, then every full-bore conical with a diameter that's slightly greater than the bore diameter (defined by usual muzzleloader standards as the distance from land to land) is a REAL bullet: The rifling will engrave grooves on the bullet as the bullet is loaded. The HGP is one such bullet - as most full-bore conicals seem to be. However, in most of the reading I've done on this site and elsewhere, when writers refer to a REAL bullet, they are referring to the specific Lee design - which is quite different than the HGP design, as Idahoron points out.

There is definitely a little confusion going on with me, in terms of R.E.A.L. bullets. I have tried to find what constitutes a R.E.A.L. bullet and get more information on it, but I was unsuccessful in my efforts. Is it one company? Is it a general term do designate any bullet that displays those characteristics when loading? All I know is people are and have been concerned about the HGP bullet unseating itself from the charge. They start hard, after the rifling engraves the bands then they load the rest of the way easier, which can actually describe many ML bullets. My hard cast Maxi Balls do not display those characteristics.

 

[idahoron]

What is the difference between the HGP bullet and a R.E.A.L. bullet if the characteristics are the same?

By the same characteristics I'm assuming you mean they both have narrow bases and larger top ring. If that is what you mean by what they have in common.
Here is a REAL and HGP 410 grain side by side. The Hornady bullet is hollow base that is designed to be shot with no base wad. The REAL needs a base wad for better accuracy. The REAL is a grease groove bullet and the Hornady has grease but it's not a grease groove bullet.
The Meplat on the old Hornady was wider and did provide more shock in impact. The more pointed REAL bullet just isn't going to provide as much whomp on impact.
More weight increases FPE on impact.
The two bullets are really not comparative.
Now look at the 385 hollow point. It is designed to unwrap even faster. It is my opinion that the 385 is not and good game bullet. I know many guys have used them but my experience with the 410 has lead me to not be able to recommend the HGP bullet for any type of big game.
Between the REAL and the 385 HGP I would choose the REAL because i could adjust lead hardness to suit my needs.

 

[WP79Vet]

There is definitely a little confusion going on with me, in terms of R.E.A.L. bullets. I have tried to find what constitutes a R.E.A.L. bullet and get more information on it, but I was unsuccessful in my efforts. Is it one company? Is it a general term do designate any bullet that displays those characteristics when loading? All I know is people are and have been concerned about the HGP bullet unseating itself from the charge. They start hard, after the rifling engraves the bands then they load the rest of the way easier, which can actually describe many ML bullets. My hard cast Maxi Balls do not display those characteristics.

I'm not aware of any bullet company that goes by the name REAL - Lee has just named one bullet design (for which Lee makes a mold) "R.E.A.L." For all I know, Lee's name may be the source of the acronym.

 

[idahoron]

Is your problem with the HGP 385 grain bullets that they are too soft to penetrate well? What full-bore 50 caliber conical do you recommend for hunting elk? The commercially available choices seem to be pretty limited.

I'm looking for a conical which will shoot well out of my 1-48 twist Renegade with heavy hunting charges, will load easily, and will give adequate penetration to kill elk reliably, even if bullet placement is less than perfect. My initial thinking is that the 1-48 twist probably isn't fast enough to stabilize bullets that are much heavier than 400 grains, and for trajectory reasons, I would prefer a somewhat lighter and thus faster bullet anyway. If necessary, I'll get into casting my own, but I'd prefer to find a reasonable commercial bullet and just size it to fit my rifle, if necessary to get an easily loaded bullet. Hence my interest in the HGP 385 grain bullet.

Yes my issue with them is they are too soft. They expand too quickly and reduce penetration. I think this bullet next to the Hornady is a no excuse bullet 460 gr.
If I were to use a factory bullet for a 1-48 I would use a light weight no excuse bullet.

 

[WP79Vet]

By the same characteristics I'm assuming you mean they both have narrow bases and larger top ring. If that is what you mean by what they have in common.
Here is a REAL and HGP 410 grain side by side. The Hornady bullet is hollow base that is designed to be shot with no base wad. The REAL needs a base wad for better accuracy. The REAL is a grease groove bullet and the Hornady has grease but it's not a grease groove bullet.
The Meplat on the old Hornady was wider and did provide more shock in impact. The more pointed REAL bullet just isn't going to provide as much whomp on impact.
More weight increases FPE on impact.
The two bullets are really not comparative.
Now look at the 385 hollow point. It is designed to unwrap even faster. It is my opinion that the 385 is not and good game bullet. I know many guys have used them but my experience with the 410 has lead me to not be able to recommend the HGP bullet for any type of big game.
Between the REAL and the 385 HGP I would choose the REAL because i could adjust lead hardness to suit my needs.

Ability to adjust lead hardness is a big advantage of casting your own. If I end up going that route, though, I will probably buy a custom mold from Accurate rather than a Lee R.E.A.L. mold. Accurate has a couple of existing designs for bullets that are around 350 grains that look pretty good - very similar to Lewis' I bullet in design with a big flat meplat for shock effect and a wide wound channel. My 1-48 twist Renegade should stabilize a 350 grain bullet well, and that weight would seem to offer good muzzle velocity and a flat trajectory along with decent down-range energy retention.

 

[idahoron]

There is definitely a little confusion going on with me, in terms of R.E.A.L. bullets. I have tried to find what constitutes a R.E.A.L. bullet and get more information on it, but I was unsuccessful in my efforts. Is it one company? Is it a general term do designate any bullet that displays those characteristics when loading? All I know is people are and have been concerned about the HGP bullet unseating itself from the charge. They start hard, after the rifling engraves the bands then they load the rest of the way easier, which can actually describe many ML bullets. My hard cast Maxi Balls do not display those characteristics.

As was said. The REAL is a bullet mould made by Lee.
While I hate HGP bullets I never had one come off a charge.

 

[WP79Vet]

Yes my issue with them is they are too soft. They expand too quickly and reduce penetration. I think this bullet next to the Hornady is a no excuse bullet 460 gr.
If I were to use a factory bullet for a 1-48 I would use a light weight no excuse bullet.

Thanks for your advice. I hear lots of good things about No Excuses, they were easy to work with when I ordered on of their bore size kits, and the basic bullet design looks good. Maybe I'll try a the 420 grain No Excuses bullet and see how it shoots.