Has anyone ever had a R.E.A.L bullet move off the charge?

[WP79Vet]

This bullet is the Lee 500S&W bullet. I harden them to 6 to 7 BHN. This bullet started out at 458 grains. I dug it out of a bull elk at 454 grains. It broke the bulls shoulder took out the spine and was found under the skin on the off side.

Sounds like BHN of 6 to 7 is about right for a muzzleloader then? If sized correctly, do they load fairly easily at that BHN? This evening I sent an email to Bullshop to see if they can sell me conicals that weigh about 350 grains. I also sent one to Montana Bullet Works. MBW seems to specialize in cast bullets for cartridge guns, but they have a 50 cal bullet that weighs about 350 grains and might work in a muzzleloader if cast with a soft enough alloy.

 

[idahoron]

Sounds like BHN of 6 to 7 is about right for a muzzleloader then? If sized correctly, do they load fairly easily at that BHN? This evening I sent an email to Bullshop to see if they can sell me conicals that weigh about 350 grains. I also sent one to Montana Bullet Works. MBW seems to specialize in cast bullets for cartridge guns, but they have a 50 cal bullet that weighs about 350 grains and might work in a muzzleloader if cast with a soft enough alloy.

My 45 cal bullets are 8 to 8.5 bhn. My 50's are 6 to 7. I think optimal hardness and bullet shape go hand in hand. But fir a 50 with a wide meplat I think 6 to 7 is pretty good.

 

[WP79Vet]

My 45 cal bullets are 8 to 8.5 bhn. My 50's are 6 to 7. I think optimal hardness and bullet shape go hand in hand. But fir a 50 with a wide meplat I think 6 to 7 is pretty good.

What alloy(s) do you use for BHNs in the 6.5 to 8 range? Thanks for all the great information - learning from your experience will save me buckets of time and money!

 

[idahoron]

What alloy(s) do you use for BHNs in the 6.5 to 8 range? Thanks for all the great information - learning from your experience will save me buckets of time and money!

I use pure lead from Rotometals. I add reclaimed lead shot to harden. I have no exact formula. I have a lead hardness tester. I add some pour a couple bullets and test them.

 

[idahoron]

If you didn't want to mess with mixing, and it can be tough to get right. I would order 1-40 and go with it. It will be about 8. I run 45's a little harder. 50's a little softer.
8 will be just fine.


https://www.rotometals.com/1-to-40-bullet-alloy-ingot-5-pounds-97-5-lead-2-5-tin/

 

[451whitworth]

First, no bigger than the deer are here (when compared to other locations) my guess is the HGP bullet would still have a good chance of exit. But I am not certain on that. The greater expansion is the reason why I am considering those bullets. But again, I am not sold on them yet

I've seen probably 50 whitetail deer shot with the Hornady 385gr. GP. They work great at typical eastern/midwest woodlot distances.

 

[WP79Vet]

If you didn't want to mess with mixing, and it can be tough to get right. I would order 1-40 and go with it. It will be about 8. I run 45's a little harder. 50's a little softer.
8 will be just fine.


https://www.rotometals.com/1-to-40-bullet-alloy-ingot-5-pounds-97-5-lead-2-5-tin/

Thanks for the great info, Ron. I just looked into hardness testers, and they are a little pricey - even the Lee tester is about $90. So... going with 1-40 is probably the best place to start.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Thanks for the great info, Ron. I just looked into hardness testers, and they are a little pricey - even the Lee tester is about $90. So... going with 1-40 is probably the best place to start.

I have been using the 1-40 from Rotometals for several years, to cast 330-345s for my .45s. It has been ideal for me. I dont have a tester, just going on deer results

 

[idahoron]

I have been using the 1-40 from Rotometals for several years, to cast 330-345s for my .45s. It has been ideal for me. I dont have a tester, just going on deer results

What bullet are you making?

 

[michiganmuzzy]

What bullet are you making?

330 Gould with and without HP and the 45-340i

 

[Jitterbug]

So those are the only R.E.A.L. bullets? None sold commercially?

Hi, ETipp-

Here’s a link to the R.E.A.L. molds, and some information about them, offered by Lee Precision.
https://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/black-powder-molds/black-powder-real-bullet-combo-molds/
I’m quite certain that I have seen R.E.A.L. bullets for sale from small/hobby casters, on GunBroker or similar. Naturally, I can’t find them, now…

EDIT: I’m fairly certain that these bullets were cast in the smaller Lee R.E.A.L. mold. (NDIH)
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/953199331
A quick email to the seller would likely answer the question for sure…

 

[ETipp]

Hi, ETipp-

Here’s a link to the R.E.A.L. molds, and some information about them, offered by Lee Precision.
https://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/black-powder-molds/black-powder-real-bullet-combo-molds/
I’m quite certain that I have seen R.E.A.L. bullets for sale from small/hobby casters, on GunBroker or similar. Naturally, I can’t find them, now…

EDIT: I’m fairly certain that these bullets were cast in the smaller Lee R.E.A.L. mold. (NDIH)
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/953199331
A quick email to the seller would likely answer the question for sure…

Thank you for the information.

 

[Greg_E]

I'm still trying to figure out if it is legal for me to sell cast bullets in or out of NY, else I'd probably have both of the 50 and one 45 REAL. These have been some of the easiest to cast molds that I've used, my reject rate (if I'm paying attention) is down to about 1 in 51 pours, I always examine the first pour to see if it is filling, and therefore is in the remelt pile. Might be tighter as I spend more time making them and refining my process.

 

[reubj]

IIRC back in the day when T/C came out with the Maxi Ball, CVA countered by offering their R.E.A.L. bullet.
I may be wrong.

 

[WP79Vet]

I've exchanged a couple of emails with The Bullshop. They offer the Lyman GP bullets (395 grains, flat point, plain base), as well as the Lyman 512137 (350 grains, also FP/PB), and will size them to any desired diameter at no charge. They will also cast with whatever alloy you want, but there is a 50% charge for a nonstandard alloy. For ML, the Bullshop considers anything other than pure lead to be a non-standard alloy. Seems like a good way to explore a few bullet options that aren't available commercially without having to get into casting right away. I'm going to use a No Excuses sizer pack that I bought a couple weeks ago to decide on a size-to diameter, and then order 100 bullets from the Bullshop and try them out. Both bullet designs look good - I'll start with the 512137 cast with 1-40 alloy because the 350 grain weight would seem to be closer to ideal for my 1-48 twist, shallow groove stock Renegade barrel.

I'm really enjoying my Renegade, but already have so many hobbies that I'm reluctant to add another one (bullet casting) unless it becomes evident that I'm going to get into muzzleloading (+ cast bullets for my .357 Mag and my .45-70) deeply enough to justify it. Also, we are just getting started on settling into our new Montana home... I have one rental house that needs major remodeling work, I need to build a couple of garages and a woodworking shop on the property where we live, and we've got some major rennovation and remodeling work to do on the house we live in. I do nearly all of the construction/repair/maintenance work on our rentals and our home myself - because I enjoy that sort of work and could never afford to pay competent professionals to do it. So... it's a fun but busy life.

 

[idahoron]

I've exchanged a couple of emails with The Bullshop. They offer the Lyman GP bullets (395 grains, flat point, plain base), as well as the Lyman 512137 (350 grains, also FP/PB), and will size them to any desired diameter at no charge. They will also cast with whatever alloy you want, but there is a 50% charge for a nonstandard alloy. For ML, the Bullshop considers anything other than pure lead to be a non-standard alloy. Seems like a good way to explore a few bullet options that aren't available commercially without having to get into casting right away. I'm going to use a No Excuses sizer pack that I bought a couple weeks ago to decide on a size-to diameter, and then order 100 bullets from the Bullshop and try them out. Both bullet designs look good - I'll start with the 512137 cast with 1-40 alloy because the 350 grain weight would seem to be closer to ideal for my 1-48 twist, shallow groove stock Renegade barrel.

I'm really enjoying my Renegade, but already have so many hobbies that I'm reluctant to add another one (bullet casting) unless it becomes evident that I'm going to get into muzzleloading (+ cast bullets for my .357 Mag and my .45-70) deeply enough to justify it. Also, we are just getting started on settling into our new Montana home... I have one rental house that needs major remodeling work, I need to build a couple of garages and a woodworking shop on the property where we live, and we've got some major rennovation and remodeling work to do on the house we live in. I do nearly all of the construction/repair/maintenance work on our rentals and our home myself - because I enjoy that sort of work and could never afford to pay competent professionals to do it. So... it's a fun but busy life.

I had very poor luck with the Lyman great plains bullet. My 50 yard groups were 8 inches maybe more at 50 yards. I even tried to paper patch them. I just didn't have good luck.
The specs said this bullet was supposed to be .508 but mine dropped out at .503 at the top ring. Mine was very loose. I sent it back to Lyman and they said it was within factory specifications.

That said. At that time I had no idea my rifles liked harder lead. If I were to try them again I would use 1-40 lead and double the over powder wads.
Also, I would use the alloy to help the mould fill out. I would be very interested to try that mould again with 15 years more experience in casting.

About this time I developed the paper patched Lee 500S&W bullet. That bullet shot so well that I sold the Lyman mould and stuck with the Lee bullet. That bullet has been a unbelievably good hunting bullet.

 

[WP79Vet]

I had very poor luck with the Lyman great plains bullet. My 50 yard groups were 8 inches maybe more at 50 yards. I even tried to paper patch them. I just didn't have good luck.
The specs said this bullet was supposed to be .508 but mine dropped out at .503 at the top ring. Mine was very loose. I sent it back to Lyman and they said it was within factory specifications.

That said. At that time I had no idea my rifles liked harder lead. If I were to try them again I would use 1-40 lead and double the over powder wads.
Also, I would use the alloy to help the mould fill out. I would be very interested to try that mould again with 15 years more experience in casting.

About this time I developed the paper patched Lee 500S&W bullet. That bullet shot so well that I sold the Lyman mould and stuck with the Lee bullet. That bullet has been a unbelievably good hunting bullet.

Hopefully the Bullshop has good quality control. Only one way to find out, I guess. The 512137 has a nominal outer diameter of .512, and I'm guessing (based on initial testing with the No Excuses sizer pack - which I measured with my dial caliper) that an outer diameter of around .503 will be the best fit to my Renegade. So... If I ask the Bullshop to size down to .504, that should work in the Renegade, and if necessary, I can size down a little further - if I buy an adjustable sizer. Any thoughts? Thanks Ron.

 

[idahoron]

I would test some as cast. And have him size some. Like I said, I think I made some mistakes with mine that I would try them again to see if I can make them work but at this point it isn't needed for me.

 

[WP79Vet]

The problem I have with no excuse bullets is there is very little quantity control. If you are willing to grade them after you purchase them you will get an accurate bullet .

Yesterday I adjusted the calibration of my dial caliper (it was off by about .001) and measured the diameters of some commercial cast bullets. The results are interesting:

1. No Excuses "Sizer Pack." Previously I measured just the .500 bullet and just assumed that since this was sold as a "sizer pack," the others would get larger in steps of .001. Wrong! I see what you meant about No Excuses quality control, Ron. This sizer pack may be indexed to specific No Excuses molds and NOT to actual bullet diameters? If so, the sizer pack may still have some value. The numbers on the bottoms of the bullets appear to be molded in...

Labelled Diameter /Measured Diameter
.500 / .497
.501 /.497-.498 (ie out of round)
.502 /.498
.503 /.499
.504 / .501

2. Hornady Great Plains - Diameters of driving bands, starting from the bottom. All bands were very round.
Band / Measured Diameter
1 / .494
2 / .500
3 /.504
4 / .506
5 / .509

3. Hornady PA Conical - Appears to be a continuous taper from bottom to top. Excellent roundness.
Band / Measured Diameter
Bottom / .495
Top / .509

Quality control on the Hornady bullets seems quite good, so sizing them down to maybe .503 so that they load without need for a short starter would be worthwhile. As discussed above, softness of the lead is an issue for using them on elk, though. I have 40 HGPs coming in the mail, and have about 80 PA conicals on hand. On Monday the HGPs seemed to shoot better without an overpowder wad... maybe because they have hollow bases which are designed to expand and engage the rifling and the wads are interfering with that? That could have been why the PA conicals I shot were keyholing, too. I haven't shot enough of them to reach any conclusions, but plan to shoot more in the near future.

4. TC MaxiHunter 275 Grain, Bullet #1
Band / Measured Diameter
Base /.501-.504
Mid / .500
Top / .504-.505

5. TC MaxiHunter 275 Grain, Bullet #2
Band / Measured Diameter
Base /.499 - .505
Mid / .499 - .503
Top / .504 - .505

In all respects, casting quality of the TC Maxi-Hunters appears to be very poor. In addition, the Maxi's are obviously much harder lead than the Hornadys. Out-of-roundness, poor dimensional consistency, and hard lead explains why I have such difficulty getting them to start - and doesn't bode well for accuracy. I wonder if sizing the Maxi's could compensate for some of the poor casting quality?

 

[Greg_E]

The size may be a factor of weight, which may be a factor of temperature during the cast/press operation. I have not checked the diameter of any of the REAL that I cast recently, I did weigh them and had an extreme spread of about 5 grains. I didn't think about size, and the way they work the size will get crushed into shape on loading.

For my airguns, everything is run through a sizing die, not enough pressure to push slightly large ammo down the barrel. Normally I'll size after powder coat since it adds material.

The REAL can not be sized and still work properly, they are designed to be tapered to help with loading.