Has anyone ever had a R.E.A.L bullet move off the charge?

[WP79Vet]

The size may be a factor of weight, which may be a factor of temperature during the cast/press operation. I have not checked the diameter of any of the REAL that I cast recently, I did weigh them and had an extreme spread of about 5 grains. I didn't think about size, and the way they work the size will get crushed into shape on loading.

For my airguns, everything is run through a sizing die, not enough pressure to push slightly large ammo down the barrel. Normally I'll size after powder coat since it adds material.

The REAL can not be sized and still work properly, they are designed to be tapered to help with loading.

All of the readily available commercial all-lead conicals appear to be tapered so that they will work with a variety of rifles. I have no bullet sizing experience - do you think that an adjustable sizer can be set to size just the top 2-3 bands of the HGPs (see measurements above) and H PA conicals so that these bullets are easier to load?

 

[Greg_E]

Oh, absolutely you could size the top bands, and I've shot REAL that I previously sized for airgun use. They worked OK, but not an ideal seal.

I use Lee sizing, and I think the largest they will produce is either 0.515 or 0.512 (don't quote on those limits). So getting a larger like 0.550 might take special equipment or at least a different brand. I have Lee 0.512 and 0.510 dies, my big airgun is .510 or .511 nominal and one mold drops .515. Going from .515 down to .510 is too big of a jump, so I go through the .512 first.

If you are trying to get just the top bands sized, I'd suggest trying to send the bullet through tail first. The smaller bands will help guide the bullet to center it better. I also strongly suggest measuring the output... Many of my Lee dies are under sized and slightly rough. I polished a few with a drill and cotton pellet with metal polish. A real pain but they work much better after this.

 

[eekjellander]

Looking for some information on this. Particularly the .50 caliber Hornady Great Plains Bullet, which I'm assuming its a R.E.A.L. bullet. I like what I have read on that bullet, as wells as some videos of them. But if this is a R.E.A.L bullet, and if there is anyone that's actually had one move off of the charge, I'm not so sure I want to hunt with it. I hunt some pretty steep and rough terrain, as well as from a tree stand at times. Trying to keep the muzzle upward is not going to happen all the time.

Do not assume , it is not a REAL ,like the Lyman Plains it is different and since I cast all 3 /NO they do not move . And no on sizing as they are meant to engrave upon loading with pure . And keep them down under 1500FPS and they will go thru fine ,(exit) at muzzle loader ranges / 30 to 1 gets thru with less expansion /Ed

 

[ETipp]

Do not assume , it is not a REAL ,like the Lyman Plains it is different and since I cast all 3 /NO they do not move . And no on sizing as they are meant to engrave upon loading with pure . And keep them down under 1500FPS and they will go thru fine ,(exit) at muzzle loader ranges / 30 to 1 gets thru with less expansion /Ed

That's good information. Just what I was wanting to hear. Wife just stopped and picked me up a box. Hope to give them a try tomorrow.

 

[idahoron]

Yesterday I adjusted the calibration of my dial caliper (it was off by about .001) and measured the diameters of some commercial cast bullets. The results are interesting:

1. No Excuses "Sizer Pack." Previously I measured just the .500 bullet and just assumed that since this was sold as a "sizer pack," the others would get larger in steps of .001. Wrong! I see what you meant about No Excuses quality control, Ron. This sizer pack may be indexed to specific No Excuses molds and NOT to actual bullet diameters? If so, the sizer pack may still have some value. The numbers on the bottoms of the bullets appear to be molded in...

Labelled Diameter /Measured Diameter
.500 / .497
.501 /.497-.498 (ie out of round)
.502 /.498
.503 /.499
.504 / .501

2. Hornady Great Plains - Diameters of driving bands, starting from the bottom. All bands were very round.
Band / Measured Diameter
1 / .494
2 / .500
3 /.504
4 / .506
5 / .509

3. Hornady PA Conical - Appears to be a continuous taper from bottom to top. Excellent roundness.
Band / Measured Diameter
Bottom / .495
Top / .509

Quality control on the Hornady bullets seems quite good, so sizing them down to maybe .503 so that they load without need for a short starter would be worthwhile. As discussed above, softness of the lead is an issue for using them on elk, though. I have 40 HGPs coming in the mail, and have about 80 PA conicals on hand. On Monday the HGPs seemed to shoot better without an overpowder wad... maybe because they have hollow bases which are designed to expand and engage the rifling and the wads are interfering with that? That could have been why the PA conicals I shot were keyholing, too. I haven't shot enough of them to reach any conclusions, but plan to shoot more in the near future.

4. TC MaxiHunter 275 Grain, Bullet #1
Band / Measured Diameter
Base /.501-.504
Mid / .500
Top / .504-.505

5. TC MaxiHunter 275 Grain, Bullet #2
Band / Measured Diameter
Base /.499 - .505
Mid / .499 - .503
Top / .504 - .505

In all respects, casting quality of the TC Maxi-Hunters appears to be very poor. In addition, the Maxi's are obviously much harder lead than the Hornadys. Out-of-roundness, poor dimensional consistency, and hard lead explains why I have such difficulty getting them to start - and doesn't bode well for accuracy. I wonder if sizing the Maxi's could compensate for some of the poor casting quality?

Did you weigh the no excuse bullets? I have seen + - 10 grains.

 

[WP79Vet]

Did you weigh the no excuse bullets? I have seen + - 10 grains.

No, I haven't weighed them. 10 grains is a lot.

 

[ETipp]

I hope to give the HGP a try tomorrow. If these are accurate, I may very well hunt with them next fall. No further than I shoot here combined with the somewhat smaller size deer here, my guess is they will do okay. But there's only one way to find out for sure.

On another note, JFG I shot some PowerBelt 295 hollow points today at the range. They were left over from someone else. They loaded and shot fairly decent. Not my kind of bullet but I am not ruling them out (or one of the solid PowerBelt bullets) for hunting. They are costly.

I ran into a little trouble at the range today. The hard cast Maxi Balls that I've had forever were loading harder than I like. It puzzled me because I do not remember them being so hard to load. When I got back home I went through a bunch of them that my late dad had cast. Used my caliper to measure them and found a fair amount of irregularities between many of them. There is some fairly large spreads in the diameters of the bases of them.
Between that, and the fact that they are so hard, combined with the shallow rifling in my New Englander, I am rethinking shooting them.

Now I need to work up a load for the HGP bullets. These are 385 grains. I was shooting 80 grains of 3f black powder with the Maxi Balls.

Oh, one more thing I ran into today that is of note. I grabbed my old powder horn off my wall that I've had for many years. I've always kept powder in it. Got to the range only to find it was empty. I had forgotten I emptied it a few years back into the can it came out of. So, I only had a little Black Powder in my bag but I did happen to have a flask full of 777 loose powder. So, I proceeded to experiment with that out of my old sidelock. Using #11 magnum caps it torched off just fine. However, I use some #11 regular caps to snap through after cleaning. On one shot I thought I would try one of those and got a misfire. The cap fired but not the powder. After waiting for a bit while still pointing down range, I put on a magnum primer and she touched off just fine. So now I know that 777 powder with regular #11 caps are not reliable out of this rifle.

 

[WP79Vet]

I hope to give the HGP a try tomorrow. If these are accurate, I may very well hunt with them next fall. No further than I shoot here combined with the somewhat smaller size deer here, my guess is they will do okay. But there's only one way to find out for sure.

On another note, JFG I shot some PowerBelt 295 hollow points today at the range. They were left over from someone else. They loaded and shot fairly decent. Not my kind of bullet but I am not ruling them out (or one of the solid PowerBelt bullets) for hunting. They are costly.

I ran into a little trouble at the range today. The hard cast Maxi Balls that I've had forever were loading harder than I like. It puzzled me because I do not remember them being so hard to load. When I got back home I went through a bunch of them that my late dad had cast. Used my caliper to measure them and found a fair amount of irregularities between many of them. There is some fairly large spreads in the diameters of the bases of them.
Between that, and the fact that they are so hard, combined with the shallow rifling in my New Englander, I am rethinking shooting them.

Now I need to work up a load for the HGP bullets. These are 385 grains. I was shooting 80 grains of 3f black powder with the Maxi Balls.

Oh, one more thing I ran into today that is of note. I grabbed my old powder horn off my wall that I've had for many years. I've always kept powder in it. Got to the range only to find it was empty. I had forgotten I emptied it a few years back into the can it came out of. So, I only had a little Black Powder in my bag but I did happen to have a flask full of 777 loose powder. So, I proceeded to experiment with that out of my old sidelock. Using #11 magnum caps it torched off just fine. However, I use some #11 regular caps to snap through after cleaning. On one shot I thought I would try one of those and got a misfire. The cap fired but not the powder. After waiting for a bit while still pointing down range, I put on a magnum primer and she touched off just fine. So now I know that 777 powder with regular #11 caps are not reliable out of this rifle.

I've been shooting T7 3F, from a can that was opened 6 years ago, with No. 11 caps in my Renegade for the last few weeks. No misfires in around 25 shots, but I had misfires on every third shot when I tried to do the same in a Traditions Vortek Strikerfire "Northwest Edition" and a TC Omega "Northwest Explorer." I wonder if the flame and concussion from a cap depends on how hard the cap is hit? Both the inlines had really wimpy hammer strikes.

I haven't shot the Hornady PA conicals or the HGPs - both of which have concave bases - enough to know for sure, but initial indications are that they may shoot better, at least in my rifle, WITHOUT an over-powder wad. Please let us know what you find.

 

[Greg_E]

So far no issues with T7 try with regular cci #11 caps in my Traditions "Hawken" side lock. I do make certain to lean the rifle and shake a bit to try and make sure powder falls in under the nipple. Only about a dozen shots so far.

 

[ETipp]

So far no issues with T7 try with regular cci #11 caps in my Traditions "Hawken" side lock. I do make certain to lean the rifle and shake a bit to try and make sure powder falls in under the nipple. Only about a dozen shots so far.

Indeed, I've always leaned my ML over towards the cap side and wrapped on the butt stock a few times to ascertain the powder gest over in the flash hole before seating a bullet.

 

[ETipp]

I've been shooting T7 3F, from a can that was opened 6 years ago, with No. 11 caps in my Renegade for the last few weeks. No misfires in around 25 shots, but I had misfires on every third shot when I tried to do the same in a Traditions Vortek Strikerfire "Northwest Edition" and a TC Omega "Northwest Explorer." I wonder if the flame and concussion from a cap depends on how hard the cap is hit? Both the inlines had really wimpy hammer strikes.

I haven't shot the Hornady PA conicals or the HGPs - both of which have concave bases - enough to know for sure, but initial indications are that they may shoot better, at least in my rifle, WITHOUT an over-powder wad. Please let us know what you find.

I don't know for sure but that's the only time its ever happened to me before with any sidelock ML. Have not tried a wad yet. I would think that the hollow base needs to expand on the shot so a wad might impede that?

 

[WP79Vet]

I don't know for sure but that's the only time its ever happened to me before with any sidelock ML. Have not tried a wad yet. I would think that the hollow base needs to expand on the shot so a wad might impede that?

Wad impeding base expansion is my concern.

 

[ETipp]

Wad impeding base expansion is my concern.

Gotcha.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Wad impeding base expansion is my concern.

A wad wont impede that base expansion. There is a LOT of pressure there and no way could a bit of wool or cardboard withstand it. Someone else suggested using half a cotton ball in there if you have a concern.

 

[WP79Vet]

A wad wont impede that base expansion. There is a LOT of pressure there and no way could a bit of wool or cardboard withstand it. Someone else suggested using half a cotton ball in there if you have a concern.

I agree.... but a wad could certainly distort expansion of the base, particularly as pressure is building, and result in a misguided bullet.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I agree.... but a wad could certainly distort expansion of the base, particularly as pressure is building, and result in a misguided bullet.

I dont think so. It is just a flimsy little thing. Ive seen them get burnt right up just by a primer and no powder. A few shoots with and without should show either way.

 

[WP79Vet]

I dont think so. It is just a flimsy little thing. Ive seen them get burnt right up just by a primer and no powder. A few shoots with and without should show either way.

I've shot some HGPs with and without wads, but ran out of the HGPs before I could shoot enough to come to a definitive conclusion. Further, at this point my "shooting bench" is limited to shooting sticks and a 5 gallon bucket, and my Renegade is still wearing the factory notch sight which is not particularly accurate with my 65 year-old eyes, so all accuracy tests are a bit suspect.

Nevertheless, what I can say, at this point, is that with wads, about 60% of my shots stayed in a 2 inch circle at 50 yards, but the others were inexplicible fliers that were off by 6 inches to a foot. I finally fired the last 3 HGPs without wads, and all were in the 2 inch circle. I just received 40 more HGPs, and hope to resume testing soon.

Also, some Hornady PA conicals that I shot with wads exhibited keyholing and erratic flight - which I at first attributed to overstabilization - but now suspect may actually have been caused by the wads. Will resume testing on this, too.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Yeah that notch is not great imo. Sounds like continued testing is called for, on the ‘wad vs no-wad’ debate. Theres never a bad reason to shoot more.
I was sizing lead to fit snug in my bores but lately ive been trying out Dic Whites ‘slip-fit’ system, where his lead bullets fit with just barely any resistance in the bore. That has helped decrease groups in a couple of my guns, most notably in an old .45 Omega. Havent tried with the Renegade yet.

 

[WP79Vet]

Yeah that notch is not great imo. Sounds like continued testing is called for, on the ‘wad vs no-wad’ debate. Theres never a bad reason to shoot more.
I was sizing lead to fit snug in my bores but lately ive been trying out Dic Whites ‘slip-fit’ system, where his lead bullets fit with just barely any resistance in the bore. That has helped decrease groups in a couple of my guns, most notably in an old .45 Omega. Havent tried with the Renegade yet.

Based on the Idaholewis videos I've watched, my current theory is that the best bullet diameter is one that's just tight enough to keep the bullet from moving off the powder, and keep the bullet aligned with the bore. To me, that means that the lands will slightly engrave the rifling, but not enough to require any thwacks on a short starter - just firm finger pressure directly to the bullet - to get the bullet started. Any more than that to start the bullet, and I'm thinking that it's just too easy to misalign and deform it.

 

[WP79Vet]

Following up on the bullet diameter thoughts - both the HGPs and the H PAs have front driving band diameters of about .509, and thus require multiple firm thwacks on the short starter to get started down the bore of my Renegade. That could also be the source of the fliers I observed, because both bullets are very soft lead. In a few days I will have a new Hankins sizer in hand, along with a new reloading bench.... getting settled into our new Montana home is taking longer than envisioned.... as all moves do. I plan to size the H PAs and H GPs down to an easily loaded diameter berfore I resume accuracy tests with them.

This spring I plan to build a decent bench rest for my backyard shooting range, and by then my Renegade should be wearing a peep, both of which will help with the accuracy tests too.