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Bushfire

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Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
23
G'day all,

My love of blackpowder started as a kid watching Jeremiah Johnson prying out hatchet Jack's hawken 50 cal

Been a keen black powder hunter here in Australia for the last 6 or 7 years, hunting with an TC inline 50 cal running Alliant Black MZ.

I've got a couple of questions I'm hoping to get help with. Firstly, they've stopped importing Alliant into Australia which was our only BP substitute so I'm going to move to either 2F or 3F for the inline. I've ordered some 250gn hornady copper sabot's, what charge would I need to be similar in perfornance to my standard 110gn alliant black mz?

Secondly, I'm tomorrow planning on purchasing a 50 cal hawken woodsman. Mostly planning on it as a deer gun but I'd love to use it on an upcoming buffalo hunt. Because of covid it's unclear whether I'll be hunting September or it will be moved into next year. I believe the rifle has a 1:38 twist so I may be able to get away with sabots. If so I'd try the 250 gn hornady coppers. Would a charge of around 100gn of either 2F or 3F produce sufficient energy on a buff out to say 50 yards? (Providing it is an accurate load).

I don't really know whether 2F or 3F would be best for either rifle.

Any suggestions appreciated!
 

Idaholewis

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Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Messages
4,959
First off, WELCOME to the Modern Muzzleloading Forum :lewis:

I have never Shot Alliant Black MZ so I can’t comment on it. As for Powder Grades (2 and 3F) I personally prefer 2F Grade, I shoot Swiss Real Blackpowder pretty much Exclusively in my Rifles, I use to Shoot quite a bit of 3F Grade, But switched to 2F after a Run of HORRIBLE Shooting with 3F (I might have got a Bad Can of Powder?) This 2F Swiss will Shoot Bullets Through Bullet Holes for me

Which Brand of Powder will you be Getting?
 

Bushfire

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
23
First off, WELCOME to the Modern Muzzleloading Forum :lewis:

I have never Shot Alliant Black MZ so I can’t comment on it. As for Powder Grades (2 and 3F) I personally prefer 2F Grade, I shoot Swiss Real Blackpowder pretty much Exclusively in my Rifles, I use to Shoot quite a bit of 3F Grade, But switched to 2F after a Run of HORRIBLE Shooting with 3F (I might have got a Bad Can of Powder?) This 2F Swiss will Shoot Bullets Through Bullet Holes for me

Which Brand of Powder will you be Getting?
Thank you for the reply,

I believe WANO is the most common brand available but I'm not sure what the local shop has. Alliant was the last US brand we imported. Talking to suppliers the restrictions our govt puts in place make it not worth the effort. Similarly I don't believe lyman and pedersoli are available here any longer.
 

Renegadehunter

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Oct 23, 2018
Messages
148
About the 100 grain charge of 2f or 3f.
Read the manual for your rifle, but 100 grains of 2f in a .50 cal is at or very near the max recommended load according to manufacturers. I have zero experience with an inline, so perhaps they are built to accept a hotter charge than the 30 year old sidelocks I'm experienced with?

I've read that BlackMZ isn't quite as powerful as real black (no actual experience with it so can't say that with 100% confidence), so your 110 grain charge of MZ may be comparable to 100 grains of real black 2f.

3f is finer and produces more pressure, so a 100 grains of 3f may be over the max load. It is fine to use 3f, but you'll want to reduce it by about 15% in comparison to 2f.

In my .54 cal TC Renegade I get similar sized groups out of 90 grains of 2f or 80 grains of 3f when I shoot patched round ball. I prefer 3f since I get less fouling. Like Idaholewis my rifle also seems to prefer 2f when I use a conical, I get nice groups out of a 100 grain 2f charge.

I think it's going to be best to just do some shooting. Your rifle will tell you what granulation and charge it prefers. I like to start around 70 grains, shoot a group, go up to 75 grains and shoot another group, go up another 5 grains etc., etc. until I find the best group. When I'm doing this I generally see my groups start off bigger, reduce in size, and then start to open up again. For hunting I go with 5 grains under whatever charge that I saw the groups start to increase again.
 

Bushfire

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Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
23
It's second hand so won't have a manual with it. This is it below if you can ID it from here.

Would any other hornady ML projectiles suit buffalo? Either the monoflex or great plains would be my guess but I'm not sure. We don't have a lot of options in Australia.
 

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Bruce Mattes

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Feb 15, 2020
Messages
511
In Australia, you are talking about hunting feral water buffalo? Are they bad tempeed like the African Cape buffalo? Big, tough animals that need tough bullets?
 

Bushfire

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Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
23
In Australia, you are talking about hunting feral water buffalo? Are they bad tempeed like the African Cape buffalo? Big, tough animals that need tough bullets?
Yes sir,

I'm going to be hunting a couple of bulls, for my main one I'll use the 9.3x62 but I'd like to also use the MZ if possible.

Just unsure what it's going to take on a buff to pull off a clean kill. Planning on limiting shots to under 50 yards on broadside behind the shoulder scenarios or not fire.

But it's our limited bullet choice that leaves me scratching my head about the direction to go.
 

Bruce Mattes

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Feb 15, 2020
Messages
511
The picture of your rifle looks like a standard T/C Hawken rifle. I am not familiar with a Hawken Woodsman model. Are you sure it has 1:38" twist rifling? If it does, it will stabilize a longer bullet than will Thompson/Center's standard 1:48" twist rifling.

Are you allowed to purchase bullet moulds for casting your own bullets in Australia? If so then we have got a lot of hunters here with a lot of experience that can steer you in the right direction for choosing a mould.

From what I have read about feral buffalo, I would want a 500 grain bullet in front of 70-90 grains of black powder. A slip-on recoil pad, with some kind of spacer/filler, to fill in the curve of that brass buttplate, will go a LONG WAY in taming the recoil from such a heavy bullet.
 

Bushfire

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
23
The picture of your rifle looks like a standard T/C Hawken rifle. I am not familiar with a Hawken Woodsman model. Are you sure it has 1:38" twist rifling? If it does, it will stabilize a longer bullet than will Thompson/Center's standard 1:48" twist rifling.

Are you allowed to purchase bullet moulds for casting your own bullets in Australia? If so then we have got a lot of hunters here with a lot of experience that can steer you in the right direction for choosing a mould.

From what I have read about feral buffalo, I would want a 500 grain bullet in front of 70-90 grains of black powder. A slip-on recoil pad, with some kind of spacer/filler, to fill in the curve of that brass buttplate, will go a LONG WAY in taming the recoil from such a heavy bullet.
Yes sorry 1:48, false keystroke.

I'm not really sure about casting your own here, haven't done it for the inline but I will look into it.

Shooting a 500gn bullet hurts my shoulder reading about it to be honest! If I couldn't find something manageable I'd take my inline as it's fitted with a limbsaver. I just like the caplocks more.
 

Bruce Mattes

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Feb 15, 2020
Messages
511
I saw your other thread, and this rifle looks a little light for buffalo. A 1:48" twist won't stabilize a very long bullet, perhaps 375-400 grains. If you have a back-up shooter, then that will do the job at 50m, if you place your shot well.
 

Bushfire

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
23
I saw your other thread, and this rifle looks a little light for buffalo. A 1:48" twist won't stabilize a very long bullet, perhaps 375-400 grains. If you have a back-up shooter, then that will do the job at 50m, if you place your shot well.
Thank you for the reply.

It's not something that I must do, if I can only take my centrefire for that particular hunt so be it. I hunt open sights anyhow so it's still great fun.

Do you have any recommendations for the hawken on elk sized game? Red deer and sambar are my main large game here in Aus.
 

Idaholewis

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Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Messages
4,959
I saw your other thread, and this rifle looks a little light for buffalo. A 1:48" twist won't stabilize a very long bullet, perhaps 375-400 grains. If you have a back-up shooter, then that will do the job at 50m, if you place your shot well.
Here is a 1.150” inch 650 Grain Bullet in a Stock 1:48 Twist .54 Cal Thompson Center Renegade, They do pretty Darn well. I would be PLENTY Confident under 100 Yards, Same goes for the Stock 1:48 Twist .50 Cal







And here’s the “LIL Heartbreaker” Paper Patch Bullet

5 Shots, It started Raining, i had to pack up and leave


“LIL Heartbreaker”



 

Bruce Mattes

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Feb 15, 2020
Messages
511
Both loads above, in a Stock 1:48 Twist .54 Cal would YANK THE RUG out from under ANY Buffalo Alive.
Except, that Bushfire is contemplating purchasing a .50 caliber rifle. Your tests have shown that the. 54 caliber with the 1:48" twist seems to outperform the. 50 caliber rifles as far as the heavier bullets are concerned.
 

Idaholewis

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Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Messages
4,959
Except, that Bushfire is contemplating purchasing a .50 caliber rifle. Your tests have shown that the. 54 caliber with the 1:48" twist seems to outperform the. 50 caliber rifles as far as the heavier bullets are concerned.
I went back through and looked, i shot 2 Different 450 Grain Paper Patch Bullets in the 1:48 Twist .50 Cal, They both Shot VERY well :lewis: I wouldn’t hesitate to Shoot the Nastiest Buffalo our World has to offer with a 450 Grain Hunk of Lead


Both of these, Made the Targets Below, They are Both 450 Grains. I have no Doubt this 1:48 Twist TC Renegade .50 Cal of mine would Shoot my Largest 50 Cal Bullets as well





 

Ninering62

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
498
G'day all,

My love of blackpowder started as a kid watching Jeremiah Johnson prying out hatchet Jack's hawken 50 cal

Been a keen black powder hunter here in Australia for the last 6 or 7 years, hunting with an TC inline 50 cal running Alliant Black MZ.

I've got a couple of questions I'm hoping to get help with. Firstly, they've stopped importing Alliant into Australia which was our only BP substitute so I'm going to move to either 2F or 3F for the inline. I've ordered some 250gn hornady copper sabot's, what charge would I need to be similar in perfornance to my standard 110gn alliant black mz?

Secondly, I'm tomorrow planning on purchasing a 50 cal hawken woodsman. Mostly planning on it as a deer gun but I'd love to use it on an upcoming buffalo hunt. Because of covid it's unclear whether I'll be hunting September or it will be moved into next year. I believe the rifle has a 1:38 twist so I may be able to get away with sabots. If so I'd try the 250 gn hornady coppers. Would a charge of around 100gn of either 2F or 3F produce sufficient energy on a buff out to say 50 yards? (Providing it is an accurate load).

I don't really know whether 2F or 3F would be best for either rifle.

Any suggestions appreciated!
hi Bushfire, welcome to the forum. Ya picked a fine bunch to join & ask for assistance.
I've used 2f goex in my 2-.50 cal sidelocks shooting PRB's many many moons ago. I only have 1 sidelock now & its .40 cal that I only use T7 fff in. I was told to use 3f up to .45 cal then 2f is more suited. Its a shame that you do not have access to whatever kind of powder, bullets or guns that you want. Hope ya found the answers ya needed, the guys that offered insight & info are top notch. You can take what they;ve told ya to the bank. Best of luck with your choices & much success on your hunt.
 

Bushfire

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
23
I went back through and looked, i shot 2 Different 450 Grain Paper Patch Bullets in the 1:48 Twist .50 Cal, They both Shot VERY well :lewis: I wouldn’t hesitate to Shoot the Nastiest Buffalo our World has to offer with a 450 Grain Hunk of Lead


Both of these, Made the Targets Below, They are Both 450 Grains. I have no Doubt this 1:48 Twist TC Renegade .50 Cal of mine would Shoot my Largest 50 Cal Bullets as well





They look great, what brand are they or did you cast them yourself?

Again thank you very much for the help.
 

Bushfire

Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2020
Messages
23
hi Bushfire, welcome to the forum. Ya picked a fine bunch to join & ask for assistance.
I've used 2f goex in my 2-.50 cal sidelocks shooting PRB's many many moons ago. I only have 1 sidelock now & its .40 cal that I only use T7 fff in. I was told to use 3f up to .45 cal then 2f is more suited. Its a shame that you do not have access to whatever kind of powder, bullets or guns that you want. Hope ya found the answers ya needed, the guys that offered insight & info are top notch. You can take what they;ve told ya to the bank. Best of luck with your choices & much success on your hunt.
Thank you looks like a great forum, unfortunately I don't have a lot to contribute from my limited knowledge of BP but I'm keen to stick around and hear from you all.
 

Idaholewis

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Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Messages
4,959
They look great, what brand are they or did you cast them yourself?

Again thank you very much for the help.
The Wide Meplat Bullet on the left is my Home Cast from a Custom Mold I had Made, And The other Bullet is a Common .492 Paper Patch Bullet for .50 Cal, It is from Buffalo Arms Co.

 
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