Knight Muzzle Loader Load Issues

[Matt]

So, my dad has a 50 caliber Knight Disc Extreme, its a (disc original). It used to use the orange plastic disc's, but we put a 209 bare primer conversion kit in it. He's shooting black horn 209 and the cheddite primers. He/we have used anywhere from 63 grains up to 77 grains by weight, shooting a 300 grain Hornaday SST low drag sabot. It seems/seemed to like anywhere from 63 to 68 grains the best, but didn't test a whole lot with the larger charges. The problem we are having is inconsistency. Everything is good as far as the base, scope rings, and scope. Nothing has moved. Some days the 1st (2) shots will be wonky, then I can put (2) 3 shot groups at MOA or better at 100 yds. Other days with the same temps and doing the process the same way, it's erratic. The one day, on a total clean gun, it shot (3) shots in a row at about 5/8" MOA at 100 yds using 68 grains. The next time doing everything the same, that same load the 1st 3 shots were probably a 2" group at 100 yds. Then we backed down to 63 grains. Shot once on a total clean gun, then followed that up with a (3) shot group at 1 1/4" at 100 yds, not too bad. Then the next 4 shots were erratic, (probably a 4" group), then the next 3 shots were all touching 5/8" or so. We didn't clean in between any of the shots, (that's why he is using blackhorn as to try and skip the swabbing process). I guess my questions are as follows:


-What grain bullet do you think would best suite this particular gun with a 1:28 twist rate? 250 grain, 260 grain, 270 grain, 290 grain, or 300 grain? He'll never shoot anything past 150 yards, but would like the ability and be able to practice effectively at 200 yards. He's not opposed to using a 250 grain bullet, we want to get him into what is going to be the most accurate. He also doesn't care which brand, (although he and myself have had great success with performance on deer with the Hornaday SST's) I'm sure the Scorpion PT Gold 260 grain, the Parker BE 275 grain, and the Barnes 290 grain will all perform well on deer. I've seen what the Barnes can do 1st hand, and they perform great.


-Depending on which grain bullet you'd advise from my 1st question, what powder charge would you recommend? A gentleman from Knight who I've emailed recommends 65 grains by weight with a 300 grain bullet. He/we'd prefer to stay at 63 grains by weight or higher.

-Do these guns, or any muzzle loader, seem to perform or shoot better clean or fouled when using blackhorn 209? I have a smokeless muzzle loader that I pretty much don't clean and it performs best this way. Just not sure how to treat this gun while utilizing black horn. I have an older knight muzzle loader that is the plunger style with the #11 caps that shoots the 1st 2 shots very accurately at same point of impact using 100 grains of pyrodex pellets, but the gun must be completely cleaned after 2 shots, and sometimes that gun just won't fire, (that's why I switched to smokeless!)

Thanks for any input or help

 

[Wtwthunter]

Have you checked the flame channel in the breech plug

 

[rugerbh103]

I can't answer most of your questions.

I've found 110 grains by volume of BH209 with a 300 grain PT Gold or Barnes 290 to be good in mine and friends Knights.

Is your bullet/sabot combo loading firmly. Im no BH expert, but I believe it needs a fair amount of pressure on the powder.

Is your primer seating properly? The Cheddites wouldn't fit in my bare primer plug, to fat.

All my rifles show a difference between clean and fouled bore. Some are better than others. I use two targets when i sight in for hunting. I fire the clean shot on one and follow-ups on another. Clean then repeat. It is slow, but I get a good idea of what to expect. I do have the luxury of doing most of my shooting at home.

Is the action seated firmly in the stock. I've seen some that were pretty loose.

Have you tried mounting a different scope? Sometimes they go bad and it is hard to tell.

That's all I can think of. Good luck.

 

[Swamp]

Different seating pressures when loading your bullet/sabot combination can affect group sizes dramatically. I don't care what everyone says about BH209, your still building up fouling with every shot if not swabbing, and pressures are changing slightly with every shot. When I shoot for group size, I want every shot consistent. What are you cleaning your bore with? If your not using a solvent, your not cleaning out the BH209 fouling. Try shooting different projectiles as well. Some print consistent, others don't. All rifle are different, and its time on the range with many different components to see what your rifle actually likes to shoot. I often hear so many saying "These bullets look awesome" or "My buddy shoots these in his rifle and they shoot great". Do not go by these words when shooting for group size. Spend the time out on the range and figure out what YOUR rifle likes to shoot.

 

[Mnt monkey]

I would definitely mount a different scope too ,if I were you I've had many scopes that would group well and then they would throw bullets usually I'll see this as a pattern a couple of bullets almost touching one maybe up at 2:00 in the next time I see a scattered pattern it's much the same ,a friend that is an expert shooter calls it mechanical stacking he shoots heavy recoil day in day out with military sniper rifles he sees scopes develop this often and yes most of them are high-end scopes. Given the information you presented I would stick with 250 and 275 grain bullets for the ranges you suggest having faith in your load is everything with a muzzleloader don't quit until you have your load settled

 

[Mnt monkey]

I've learned to have a humble confidence in my own shooting ability, when I pull that trigger I know whether my pull and my eye stay true or not. When I'm having a rifle giving me a hard time like this I try to really break it down shot to shot and what I mean is focusing on my trigger pull and follow through when I'm confident it was good and they're still an issue about 70% of the time for me it's turned out to be a scope issue not a breach plug or a rifle bore that's too fouled. If you're cleaning your rifle consistently the same and your breach plug and it's shooting really good sometimes and squirrely others my opinion is you have a scope issue

 

[45-70]

might be the barrel is moving, not tight enough in recoil lug and use Fury bullets and ditch the sabots

 

[Matt]

Have you checked the flame channel in the breech plug

Yes, it's brand new. The breech plug and bolt internals are all new. The plug has been cleaned every 8 shots or so.

 

[Matt]

Different seating pressures when loading your bullet/sabot combination can affect group sizes dramatically. I don't care what everyone says about BH209, your still building up fouling with every shot if not swabbing, and pressures are changing slightly with every shot. When I shoot for group size, I want every shot consistent. What are you cleaning your bore with? If your not using a solvent, your not cleaning out the BH209 fouling. Try shooting different projectiles as well. Some print consistent, others don't. All rifle are different, and its time on the range with many different components to see what your rifle actually likes to shoot. I often hear so many saying "These bullets look awesome" or "My buddy shoots these in his rifle and they shoot great". Do not go by these words when shooting for group size. Spend the time out on the range and figure out what YOUR rifle likes to shoot.

Cleaning with the pre-saturated patches, followed up with dry patches. And yeah, I don't care what a bullet looks like, and totally understand different guns like different bullets. I've spent a LOT of time on the range with this gun so far. Perhaps a dry patch every couple shots might do the trick, we'll see

 

[Matt]

I would definitely mount a different scope too ,if I were you I've had many scopes that would group well and then they would throw bullets usually I'll see this as a pattern a couple of bullets almost touching one maybe up at 2:00 in the next time I see a scattered pattern it's much the same ,a friend that is an expert shooter calls it mechanical stacking he shoots heavy recoil day in day out with military sniper rifles he sees scopes develop this often and yes most of them are high-end scopes. Given the information you presented I would stick with 250 and 275 grain bullets for the ranges you suggest having faith in your load is everything with a muzzleloader don't quit until you have your load settled

Thanks for the input. The scope is brand new, not super high end, Vortex 3 x 12 x 56 Cross Fire Illuminated. It's mounted properly. The base is bedded and mounted properly. I have witness marks all over the place and nothing is moving. I'll try a couple different methods like maybe dry patching every couple shots, maybe increase powder charge up to 80 grains by weight or somewhere around there, and if that doesn't work I'll try out the 250 grain bullets since I have those on hand. I've also been told to try out the Harvester Crush Sabots as that could also make a difference.

 

[Mnt monkey]

I would try to Harvester and a fury 250 grain bullet and a 275 Fury I'd go straight to 70 grains by weight and go a little up or a little down anything out to 150 yards would be in trouble good luck and remember with scope issues sometimes you can mount everything and have everything tight it doesn't mean there's not something wrong internally with that scope and that's everybody scope high end or low end

 

[Matt]

I've learned to have a humble confidence in my own shooting ability, when I pull that trigger I know whether my pull and my eye stay true or not. When I'm having a rifle giving me a hard time like this I try to really break it down shot to shot and what I mean is focusing on my trigger pull and follow through when I'm confident it was good and they're still an issue about 70% of the time for me it's turned out to be a scope issue not a breach plug or a rifle bore that's too fouled. If you're cleaning your rifle consistently the same and your breach plug and it's shooting really good sometimes and squirrely others my opinion is you have a scope issue

Thanks for the advice. I too realize i'm not going to shoot every shot perfect, so I do accept that and take that into account. With that being said, I don't believe it's a "me" issue on this. While I'm shooting this gun, I'm also shooting my own smokeless muzzle loader and can consistently shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yds with it. The scope is new, and I don't feel like it could be a scope issue, the base is bedded in expoxy, and all screws on base and scope are torqued properly/etc. I have witness marks all over the place and nothing has moved. Unless the internals are messed up. I think I'll try dry patching every couple shots and see if that helps consistency, and possibly a higher powder charge. If that doesn't work maybe I'll go down to the 250 grain bullets and see how they are doing. As of right now. the gun and groups are shooting acceptable enough to kill deer at 100 yds, (most groups are 1 1/4" or less) I just wouldn't have much confidence further than that. I just feel like there's some kind of cleaning/swabbing process I'm not doing correctly to continue to keep those groups.

 

[Matt]

I would try to Harvester and a fury 250 grain bullet and a 275 Fury I'd go straight to 70 grains by weight and go a little up or a little down anything out to 150 yards would be in trouble good luck and remember with scope issues sometimes you can mount everything and have everything tight it doesn't mean there's not something wrong internally with that scope and that's everybody scope high end or low end

Thanks for the input and suggested powder charge. I will be trying out the 250's soon hopefully. Like I said, we've had good luck with the 250's in the past, just thought we'd see if we could get the 300's to shoot well. They aren't shooting horribly, (just not as good as I want them to), at this point the gun is sighted in and would be a deer killer at 100 yds and in, I just wouldn't have a lot of confidence beyond 100 yds with it. For the most part it's getting 1 1/4" groups. Some were 5/8", some were 1", some were 1 1/4", some were 2", and had a group or 2 that were 4", all at 100 yds. I'm not getting any bullets that are "super fliers" that are completely out of the group, so I don't think or at least I hope there's no scope issues. It feels more like maybe I need to run a dry patch after every couple of shots, and/or adjust powder charge slightly &/or bullet weight. I guess more testing will tell!

 

[Mnt monkey]

You're on the right path it is hard when you shoot a smokeless gun that shooting a half inch to accept inch and a half I can't do it I think the 250 grain bullet is going to help you a lot share a results when you shoot some when you're troubleshooting like this you help me learn 45-70 had a good point though I would check that Barrel make sure it's tight

 

[Matt]

You're on the right path it is hard when you shoot a smokeless gun that shooting a half inch to accept inch and a half I can't do it I think the 250 grain bullet is going to help you a lot share a results when you shoot some when you're troubleshooting like this you help me learn 45-70 had a good point though I would check that Barrel make sure it's tight

Thanks. I may have to watch a you tube video, I have no idea how to take apart this Knight muzzle loader and check that, but can probably figure it out!

 

[brad502a]

Thanks for the input. The scope is brand new, not super high end, Vortex 3 x 12 x 56 Cross Fire Illuminated. It's mounted properly. The base is bedded and mounted properly. I have witness marks all over the place and nothing is moving. I'll try a couple different methods like maybe dry patching every couple shots, maybe increase powder charge up to 80 grains by weight or somewhere around there, and if that doesn't work I'll try out the 250 grain bullets since I have those on hand. I've also been told to try out the Harvester Crush Sabots as that could also make a difference.

Matt, the fact that the scope is brand new means nothing. You might have bought a lemon. Change the scope out, hopefully with one from another rifle that is confirmed good. This eliminates that variable(scope) from the equation. Just like making sure rifle is tight in the stock, the flash channel is cleaned with an 1/8" drill, etc. I am not trying to rip into your scope as I have several vortexs, but they have a warranty and you will probably use it. I have.

 

[Mnt monkey]

That's what I would do too in the circumstance you're in I know you've checked the crown of the rifle and made sure it's good too and I would put a new plug in it if it were me, it's the plug you have is wore out it would eliminate that also different scope different plug start over lighter bullet if that worked I would go back and flirt with the 300 grains again or some 275

 

[bronko220002]

I could never get thos SSTs to shoot. My fav .50 cal hunting bullet is the .452" Hornady 300 gr XTP.

 

[Utah400elk]

I have a similar rifle. Currently I am shooting 75 grns BH209 with a Federal 209 Primer and 460 grn NoExcuse bullet. I have a felt wad or Veggie wad between powder and bullet. This is an excepional round in the rifle but does drop off a lot past 125. I am not sure how far you are shooting but I believe the sabot is the week point. The Fury Universals have shot weel in my rifle and I am in the process of trying them out...with a sizer to remove the base.

Good luck to you

 

[Bobbyjoe Surrett]

Primer is to hot use a cci or federal. Cheddite primers in my tk2000 and knight american blow themselves apart for some reason I can shoot the cci and federals and I don't have that problem. The to hot primer pushes the powder forward before it can properly be ignited